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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 12:53 am 
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Imagine you are trapped in a tower with a mentally deranged man who 1] doesn't know you are present 2] is shooting at and killing people passing below ! Every second you hesitate , he kills another person ; he is too strong for you to overpower ; there is no prospect for immediate help from outside ; the only way you can stop him is to kill him from behind with the handgun you happen to have in your pocket .Should you kill him ? No doubt you will be destroying life ; on the other hand , what is the alternative ? Can you seriously hesitate because someone else as well your moral beliefs might later object to the taking of a life ?

Ha , I don't expect many hits on this one !!!


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 1:33 am 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Van: If I read your question correctly, you are asking readers to decide whether they would end one life to save many. How could anyone chose to not to stop the deranged person?

If the person is carrying a weapon, he/she must have already made this decision.

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GEM


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:00 am 
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No problem. I could do it easily, as should anyone. A barricaded sniper has one intent, to kill, there is no room for negotiating with this type and a SWAT sharpshooter could take him out with total impunity. Why shouldn't I?

Kevin


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:42 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 19, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 55
Location: Portsmouth,NH,US
Dear Van,

"Mentally deranged?" Did you think I would pass on this question (epic battle with invincible J.D. on another forum notwithstanding?)

Will you think I am copping out if I resort to words? What about diversionary tactics? Am I in the open, with no hope of self-defense if he turns his gun on me? I presume disabling the murderer is not likely to succeed. I also presume his mental disability is so obvious as to pull hard on my compassion.

Tell you what: if you sweeten this pot with a couple more moral dilemmas, maybe this will draw comments from one who says, "NO WAY would I shoot first."

Michael


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Mr. Canna:

Why is the only way to stop this person by killing him from behind? (One bullet in the gun, your gun will only shoot at fatal targets, diverting his attention and keeping him at gun point until help does arrive is some how not an option...?) Just curious.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 3:09 am 
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Location: Newton, MA
As a point of clarity, I am assuming that as part of this scenario, I am trained to use the handgun I am carrying. In my personal life, I have not aquired the training or legal paperwork needed to carry a gun.

On to the real question:

Given no other options? Absolutely, the shooter needs to go down. While I agree with the point that the example is quite extreme, the fact is, extreme things happen, and require extreme measures to deal with them.


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 4:50 am 
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George Sensei:

Actually, I've met some people who could choose not to take out the deranged person - on various religious and moral grounds.

Van-san:

As long as we're imagining, I'll imagine that I'm well versed in the use of the gun I'm carrying - if I have to shoot him from behind - he doesn't see me and I'll have an opportunity to 1) be close enough to choose a target and 2) take careful aim and 3) shoot more than once if necessary.

So, some may not like this answer, but, if in this imaginary scenario, the above conditions exist, I'll shoot to disable first - because he is not shooting at me. If he sees me however, before he takes aim, (if possible!) then it's six to the center chest and the seventh to the head...

But hopefully not.

Peace,
Lori


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 5:09 am 
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Gentlemen;

No circular arguments please ! No distortion of facts or attempts to bifurcate the issue ! Your exceptions are irrelevant to the point the moral dilemma seeks to make ! There is no acceptable alternative to the quandary or it would have been offered !

Lori writes < Actually, I've met some people who could choose not to take out
the deranged person - on various religious and moral grounds.<

This is precisely the argument ! Lets stay with it !

Peace ,


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 6:04 am 
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Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Mr. Canna:

If there are no alternatives, then is there a question? It is your hypothetical, but if you are asking whether it is moral to take a life in order to protect others, then aren't you really asking whether war or the death penalty are moral? AND, the question presupposes some agreement upon what is or is not moral. If I am part of a pirate community, killing, plundering, raping, and pillaging are moral. If I am an L.A. gangbanger, killing is moral. If I am an Amazonian tribesperson, killing may not only be moral, but it may be a spiritual experience. If I am Musashi, killing is moral and a path to enlightenment.

As you have noted, the Bible says quite clearly that we should not kill, but Ecclesiastes recognizes there is both a time to kill, and a time of war.

You set the scene. SO, if you draw a room with no doors or windows, no way in or out, and place us in the room, then our only options are to be in the room or to not be at all. Is this your hypothetical?

Peace
Robb in Sacramento


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 6:07 am 
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That's the problem with these damned ethics questions - human nature dictates that we circumvent the crux of the matter - always seeking the alternative - and part of the point here (as it appears to me) is that a serious situation does NOT give time to consider alternatives! (In the example cited above, the statement is Every second you hesitate , he kills another person - so the choice must be made - kill or allow by your inaction more killing. Not an easy choice to make - but - like advice given to a friend of mine when finding out she was unexpectedly pregnant Inaction is ALSO a decision! - in this case - more killing.

So what does it come down to? The pervading theme of this forum Where does your mindset lie? A hard question. In an example like this - we all want to clarify, assume, add facts that make the choice easier, (I did the same thing!) The hard part is to decide, within your innermost heart: Am I willing to kill to save other lives? No ifs ands or buts. No assumptions, no set ups, no fabrication of circumstances - the absence of extra facts in these ethical dilemmas is infuriating - yes - but a real life situation will leave no time for their consideration either.

So back to the question - Kill one to stop killing many?

Peace,
Lori


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 6:39 am 
Kill him.

Rick


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 6:39 am 
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Lori -chan,

I hear your tactical argument ! However , hear this : police files document evidence of deranged /drugged criminals being shot through the pulmonary artery ,upper /lower body -head , face from point blank range [one with a .44 magnum ] and still find the strength to kill the police officer shooting at him ! One in particular , was shot ten times with .38 special +p hollow point bullets during a drawn out attack on two police officers ! After being shot -- This criminal managed to kill one police officer , then pick up the second officer bodily off the ground and throwing him back and forth across the room seriously injuring him before finally collapsing !

There are variable physiological and psychogenic effects experienced by the body when hit by bullets that are not readily understood ! Cops never shoot to wound ; they shoot to stop ;and the shots are always center mass with a double tap plus a 'Mozambique' to the brain or lower abdomen if failure to stop is apparent ! Usually center mass shots are fatal , but not always as we have seen above !

This is the same delusion that plagues 'fortune cookies' martial artists about their imagined "stopping power " techniques ! If you cannot reliably stop an individual with bullets , how presumptuous the thought of prevailing with [ lineage] empty hands !!

Peace,


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 7:05 am 
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Robb,

You are equivocating again ;I am not surprised !

By some time and space warp YOU are the one in that tower trapped in the jaws of the dilemma ; the gun is in your hand ! How you got there or how you came to have the gun is not important ! The crazed gunman is killing innocent people and will kill you next when he is done shooting; he is irrational and fully adrenalized /babbling to himself [ he will probably find you as you are trapped in the tower ] ; what will you do and why ??

Recall that I previously posted that Biblical scholars tell us that in the original Hebrew the sixth commandment was " thou shall not murder" Not " thou shall not kill" ..big difference !

Peace ,


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 11:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Awe, just shoot him, we need less nuts in the world and it will save...hundreds of thousands ($) in swat deployment, and court costs, police, fire, etc...and the media coverage for the next year and the sniper dolls and special meals from McDonalds complete with lifelike tower and sniperman and a movie....oh yeah don't forget the talk shows support groups and tee shirts...Awe just shoot him.

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Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 1999 11:47 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
What if Robb went over the edge and it was him shooting people from the tower?


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