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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 1999 3:36 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
This is a question for Van, J.T., and other experienced shooters.

From reading Cirillo and Ayoob and others, the 45 ACP and .357 magnum rank about equal in effectiveness in stopping power, but Cirillo in particular prefers the .45ACP as a man stopper, one reason being its ability to hold its energy for a deeper penetration even through heavy street clothes.

The physics is easy. Energy is .5XmassXvelocity squared. Momentum is simply massXvelocity. Excluding the effect of special bullets such as mushrooming HP, the .357mag 158gr bullet has an energy at the muzzle of 535 ft lbs vs. the 45ACP 230gr's 396. That is in excess of a 20% advantage. In momentum however, the 45ACP has about a 5% advantage. Cirillo seems to think the 45 has an advantage, perhaps because of the bigger wound it makes but for knock down as well.

Now, on to military ammo. All of the above authors, plus Van, make it clear that a handgun round, even a .357 or .45 will not immediately stop many assailants. The military ammo is all FMJ and of smaller .30 cal. but if I can believe movies and war stories, an M1 fired 30-06 will drop you in your tracks, with no hollow points or soft expanding material. Is this the result of pure energy transfer and damage to surrounding soft tissue due to the shock wave on impact? A 30-06 hunting load does put handgun ammo to shame with 150gr velocities of 3,000fps and energy exceeding 2,800ftlbs - 5 times the .357.

With the pointed FMJ, why does the bullet not just pass through, leaving a relatively small wound channel?

How about some discussion on this?

Regards, Rich


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 1999 3:02 pm 
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Good thread,

A pointed ogive on a high velocity bullet does tend to overpenetrate. The .223 is supposedly designed to yaw in order to 1) transfer more energy 2) create a larger wound channel 3) cause more damage (supposedly the bullet was designed as a weapon of attrition. A larger frontal area tends to transfer more energy. Striking a balance between penetration and energy dump is key. This is what Peter Pi (sp?) of Corbon fame is working on. I prefer Corbon .45 because they are already large (and moving around 900 fps). If they expand, they come close to .90 inches!! Either way I am confident in the round and my abilities to shoot it. When I use a 9mm it is a corbon 115 +P+ (more energy). The results are basically the same. You've heard this before but it is shot placement more than anything else. BTW for the house it is glaser safety slugs.

sorry for rambling


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 1999 3:17 am 
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Hmm.... Glaser Safety Slugs? tell me about them.
Thanks, Rich


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 1999 4:06 pm 
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small pellets (#12 shot ???) encapsulated in epoxy. The epoxy keeps the bullets form for reliability. Upon impact the shot is released after penetration. X-rays of people hit with glasers look like a 'snowstorm' inside. Upon hitting things like wallboard, glasers lose energy very quickly. If you are concerned about over penetration or shots going through rooms, then glasers a good choice. Downside is penetration depth, cost (particularly for practice and reliability test) and possibly accuracy at moderate range.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 1999 11:36 am 
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Location: Marblehead, MA USA
My gunsmith pal said the best part is they disintegrate so you can't trace them.?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 1999 12:49 am 
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Van sensei: What do you think of the Glazer?
Rich


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 1999 3:07 am 
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Rich ,

The glaser , blue nose, belongs in the family of frangible bullets !

It is an excellent round in many ways ! It will break up and therefore not ricochet on the innocents when you miss , and you will miss a lot in a gun fight even at 6 ft range !

It is a great stopping round and number one choice for inside the home shoot-outs to prevent a miss punching through a wall and killing a family member on the other side !

But evidence is that it really lacks the deep penetration needed to stop especially if the goblin you are shooting at turns sideways to you and the bullet must traverse the bones of his arms before reaching center mass ! That is the only criticism I have heard of !

But if you score a hit broadside center mass , the punk is going down !


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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 1999 10:42 am 
Van,

How long do you think it will be before these bullets become illegal? I have a tendency to think that if they are good and different there is an activist group out there that wants to put a stop to personal ownership.

I remember some years back, that some people would take their pocket knife and score into a softpoint to help it fragment when it entered. Do you know anything of this, Van?

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 1999 2:42 pm 
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There is another, well actually two more frangibles. One is by (I believe) triton and the other is Gecko (?). They use stacked 'washers' that break apart like frisbees in the body. They yaw and tumble creating a massive wound channel.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 1999 1:21 am 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Rich:

The .223 as stated tends to "upset" (yaw) then break up (the jacket side walls not being real thick)thus giving up all its energy quickly after "upset". (the bullet blows up)

The original Stoner design (of the M-16) with a 1-12" twist meant the projectile was only marginally stabilized and would upset (yaw) quickly in a fluid medium.

I think this was already discussed by VAn Sensei.

The M-2 ball round ( which I devoutly hope you are using in your M-1) cannot match factory ballistics, but the projectile is a rather long light FMJBT and would sometimes "upset" producing horrendous wounds. Bone hits were devastating.

The 7.62 X 39, (Russian) for comparison, is more of a wounder, but still of .30-30 power (well-almost).

The 300 Savage was the "industries" first attempt to produce M-2 performance in a shorter case. The .308 was next to do so (7.62X54mm?) , and will do anything M-2 ball (7.62x63mm) will do.

I can't find the twist rate on an M-1 offhand. I believe it was one in ten. Some match barrels are made in 1-12 for the M1A.

So, it seems it is not so much how powerful is the round, but how much energy is it going to impart into the relatively thin human body before it exits.

I think it may be accurate to say that, although less powerful, the .45 ACP is going to "dump" most of its energy in the center of mass.

Drat--now I have to go drag out my books on Ballistic coefficient and sectional density and what not.

I never liked the glaser, 'cause they didn't seem to feed in my .380, but it was a concept initially developed for use inside a plane, where putting holes in the surrounding aluminum was undesirable. Besides, they would be no problem in a revolver. I sure somebody else already spoke of how the bullet was constructed.

I use Federal "Hydra Shok"----but thankfully have no field results. My experience is more with long arms.

I actually HAD a CASE of M-2 Ball marked Frangible, with multi colored tips (normally red for tracer, black for ap) Tried it out.

Definitely not 100% frangible.


John

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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 06-20-99).]

[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 06-20-99).]

[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 06-20-99).]


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 1999 2:26 am 
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Thanks for the info John. At the range yesterday, a gentleman had his chronograph set up and we tested the M1 with the UMC ammo. Speeds averaged around 2900fps so that ammo is not mil spec. I'll have to order a case of Talon from Cascade.
Rich


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 1999 1:28 pm 
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Rich:

You've still got me thinkin' about that Navy Contract item.

Sometimes it's been fun to try and "restore" a rebuilt M-1 yo WWII parts.

I did two, but that's my limit. The Winchester came out nice, as did the Springfield Armory --but I sold that to a dealer in Wyoming-he loved it even though he knew it was restored. He carriend one in the Pacific later but earlier carried a Remington made 1903A3, which I had at the time, so----.

I don't think he's actually going to shoot them.

J.

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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 06-20-99).]


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 1999 1:42 pm 
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This subject was discussed earlier in the year and I mentioned the video tape a friend lent me, comparing popular guns and amunition, based on the following tests:

1. shooting at one gallon plastic containers, filled with water.
2. shooting through various solid objects, including a door of a car.

Someone asked to borrow the video and forgot to give it back. The only thing I can remember about the results and recommendations was that the Glaser safety slug rated very high overall. . . I remember, because it was a 380 round. . . the same caliber and the same gun I have.

Anyone out there familiar with this video? I was hoping to publish a couple of clips here.

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GEM


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 1999 9:26 pm 
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George Sensei:

I don't have that video. I think you said you had the AMT "backup" .380?

Even thought the design is 0ver 50 years old, the Walther (PPKS) remains my favorite.

Since I dropped it out of a holster and it landed on its hammer and didn't shoot me, I have been friends with the design.

The thing I do stress with respect to the infrequent safety courses I give is:

" Sooner or later one of your firearms will go off when you don't expect it too, better be "pointed safe" when it happens."

Now i've only dropped a firearm once in 53 years and only had two "SUPRISE" discharges, but this type of thing makes you a believer in safety habits (as to point in safe direction) real quick.

The Walther design incorporates a "block" which rotates between the hammer and firing pin when the saftey is engaged.

S&W revolvers stand up well, I am told, when subjected to these "drop torture/safety" tests.

The Redhawk I have in .44 seems OK as well.

Sorry to ramble. Bit of a nut about this (safety) type of thing.

One accidental discharge was caused by -30 degree weather in a bolt gun.


Anyone out there silly enough to think it won't happen to them (ever) is asking for a second navel.


The LLama .380's (Colt system) never struck me as particularly safe in this area.

How is your .380 in this regard?.

J.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 1999 11:53 pm 
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" Sooner or later one of your firearms will go off when you don't
expect it too, better be "pointed safe" when it happens."{ J. T.}

Wiser words never spoken ! Every one of you out there , gun owners, either have already had or will have an accidental discharge ; there is no escape from it !

A few observations from experts :

1] " I am more interested in the dynamics of armed encounters , tactics , mindset ,awareness than I am in a particular type of handgun! { martial arts system} !

2] As to the .38 special ,it used to be -- the most consistent results in gunfights were given by the +p 158 grain hollow point in both two and four inch revolvers !

The famous John Farnam , whom I trained under, [ www.defense-training.com ] believes Cor-bon to be the best manufactured ammunition and he carries its 125 grains +P round ! Reason ? With all pistol bullets impact velocity will never be high enough to produce significant neural shock , pulping of tissue or pulverization of bone , as would be the case with rifle bullets .

Pistol bullets need to inflict traumatically induced loss of blood pressure to stop the individual. This requires multiple , rapid , consistent center mass hits [ the heavy recoil of the heavier bullets will increase the time and error factor between shots ] with bullets expanding upon impact and holding together in transverse penetration of the chest with the mushroomed bullet coming to rest just under the skin on the opposite side !

He believes that bullets which hold together in that fashion are superior to any frangible bullets in a gun fight shooting at real people as opposed to gelatin !

3] As to the 9mm. He believes in the 124-grain Cor bon +P HP - best compromise between expansion and penetration ! He doesn't recommend 147's as they expand inconsistently and over--penetrate !

4] As to the .45 , he believes in the 230-gr. Hydra shock and the 185 -gr. Cor-bon !

5] The gun that works best most all the time is the Glock !






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Van Canna


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