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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 1999 1:08 am 
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1] In spite of training , real fights always go down as sloppy affairs !

2] There is almost never back and forth action in a real fight ! They are usually over between two and five seconds and you can tell the winner after about a second and a half ! One or the other will always , very quickly , land that good shot that renders the opponent semiconscious who then continues to "flail" ineffectively as he gets pummeled to the ground and stomped on !

3] Real fights are much faster than we envision , almost as a cat fight !

4] in real fights even trained martial artists will "forget" all they have learned and resort to primal animalistic fury ; they are consumed by primitive anger and blood lust aimed at their opponent !

5] The reason for this primal response is due to the evolutionary survival mechanism kicking in automatically to give you brute power , pain tolerance, speed etc. to help overcome the enemy !

6] You must learn to use the fury of the "beast within" to charge your strikes with the necessary power while you still have a shot at surviving the encounter , i.e., you have not yet been damaged too bad physically or beaten psychologically !

7] " The short time frame of a fight would suggest that we cannot perform many "techniques" in one and a half second ; so we don't need to know whole "self defense systems" other than a few essential "unforgiving blows " that can work against a wide range of attacks !

8] All fights will start with your enemy throwing a right hook or overhead right to your head ! That is the focus of your counter training !

9] " Of all the martial arts techniques I have studied , the single most effective striking blow is hitting your opponent in the head with your hand { not the fist}" !

10] You hit someone in a fight with your fist , you will probably break your hand ! Mike Tyson did , notwithstanding his large bone structure, in a very brief street fight when a disgruntled contender swung at him as he came out of a restaurant !

11] "Kicking , particularly above the waist ,is not very effective in a real fight " also they have a way to leave you severely exposed if they partially or completely fail !

12] Your benefits from martial arts study comes from your ability to separate what is "art" from what can be applied in a real fight !

13] You need to "work" your kata and kumite moves into a frenzied "high power" explosive application by the practice of superior body mechanics for superior " energy transfer" ! Most of us have a very unrealistic concept of the power of our blows !
Also an adrenalized , enraged opponent , will not go down as easily as we martial artists would like to envision ! Consider the people who walk away from car crashes , gun shot wounds , and worse !

14] Most martial artists , sooner or later , fall prey to the classical " Hawthorne effect" ….the brainwashed feeling , both verbal and non verbal, as one immersed in a group sharing a common interest believing he is part of an elite group practicing the "one true art" under the "one true master " SOUND FAMILIAR ??

So the students will believe generally what they want to believe , regardless of contradictory evidence , which they deny and ignore in their continuos engagement of " martial masturbation" . i.e., reinforcing each other's beliefs that it works by " ritualized" drills { our prearranged kumites } with the attacker cooperating with the defense so the "true way " can be elegantly demonstrated !

14] Because of this , naïve , otherwise rational people get convinced by their "senseis" and the "group effect" that their black belts places them in the position to deal effectively with the common street fighter or thug !

15] " Bottom line is you are not ever likely to get a chance to use most of the techniques you study in a martial art against a real attacker ! And the techniques that would work , still don't because we cannot practice them with any degree of power and conclusion ; we must always pull back for safety reasons !

16] Can some people make those techniques work in a real fight ? Sure , some are real talented and have spent a lifetime at practicing those moves ; most martial artists do not have the time or natural ability to even get close to that standard ; so what should we emphasize for the " masses"?

17]Are all martial arts techniques worthless then ? No they are not …the real secret is in how you train !

18] On Sensei Elkins forum there is a discussion about "sensitivity" practice . which is , of course okay !

In my view , the best "sensitivity" training has to do with reading the opponent's " intent" before a blow gets underway !
This is done by working on blow perceptions and angle of attack drills by learning to recognize the "cues" your opponent gives before uncorking the blow ! Lots here to talk about !

Gary Khoury gave the regional group a good taste of it last Saturday ..there is more ..lots more ! And it starts with the mantra " the body tells " !

This is very much like the trained police officers who preempts a deadly threat by firing first upon an opponent he " perceived" going for a weapon , even if no such weapon existed …The famous PRECOGNITION legal defense !


Now where does all of the above really come from ? I can hear the flames already …the scoffers elite …clutching their belts and kissing their gi patches !

These are the words of Peyton Quinn in his book " A bouncer's guide to barroom brawling " Buy the book and read it ..it is that good !

And let's hear the counter arguments !!!

Peace ,


------------------
Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 06-27-99).]


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 1999 7:25 am 
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Sensei Van,

You had me fooled, I thought those points were vintage Canna. I'm impressed enuff' to order the book tomorrow. Disagreements? None.

I think it's interesting that Fairbairn, Applegate's, et al. research of real combat incidents totally supports Quinn's contention #9--chin jab and edge of the hand strike combined with the old highly secret/closely guarded knee to the jewels technique.

Oh, I think most of the people in the "sensitive thread" agree with you!

David


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 1999 8:58 am 
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Location: LA, CA, USA
"You hit someone in a fight with your fist , you will probably break your hand ! Mike
Tyson did , notwithstanding his large bone structure, in a very brief street fight when a disgruntled contender swung at him as he came out of a restaurant!"

I have a possible difference of opinion here, at least to a small degree (yes, I know that this came from Peyton Quinn or Marc MacYoung).

Mike Tyson is a bad example, as are many boxers, for this topic. Pro boxers focus on headhunting, which is fine with gloves, but potentially bad for the unprotected hand. If you hit an opponent in the skull with boxing gloves, you may well wear them down or knock them out, but if you do so with a naked fist, you risk serious injury. (Petyon Quinn touts the protective benefits of even a leather driving glove).

I understand that pre-glove bare knuckled fighters did not tend to hit as hard as modern boxers when they went for head shots, and that adding gloves changed boxing considerably. You might check out "Championship Streetfighting: Boxing as a Martial Art," by Ned Beaumont for some info on this subject. (Warning : he does not think highly of Asian martial arts as a means of unarmed fighing, for the most part, and lets the reader know it too).

Punches to the body (and possibly to the neck, and some other targets) can avoid the massive block of bone that is the human skull, and minimize the risk of breakage.

Boxer's hooks ae done palm down which is fine with an unpadded fist, but with an naked one can cause the hand bone under the little finger to fracture, if only the little finger's knuckle clips the target. Bare handed it is better to hook with the palm facing inward/ toward the puncher.

Boxers train very hard to be great at puching techniques that work well while wearing gloves, but endanger bare hands. If they hit, they can do great damage to you, but may also do so to themselves. Their "on the street" examples may fall short as far as the practicality of punching goes.

Scaramouche


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 1999 9:46 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
Boxers train to hit not only with a gloved hand but a wrapped one at that. A habit is formed to strike with a loose fist. I am not saying that a tight fist won't break on a hard head (depends where you hit on the head and the amount of "give" there.) But those who do bag work should incorporate some with bare hands to give a sense what one's fist is capable or not capable of.

Again, as stated above/before, you do as you train. If you;re going to use open hand strikes, practice those or you're going to revert right to a fist.

david


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 1999 10:40 am 
And how many karateka of today actually train to toughen their hands so they can hit someone solid? One out of 100? One out of 1,000? Even a higher ratio?

------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 1999 8:13 pm 
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This is great stuff.

Just a passing observation; when I trained in a boxing gym, one of the fighters there was Bert Cooper, an awesome stud when at his best. Bert never wrapped to hit the speed bag and his hands were a piece of work. You would not want to take a shot from him wrapped/gloved or not!

Another good boxing read is Jack Dempsey's Championship Fighting. He addresses skeletal alignment and advocates a vertical fist jab. He goes to great lengths to assure that he's promoting not a stinging annoyance but a potential K.O. punch.

As I thought about this topic last night I realized that I did disagree with #8. Maybe it's safe to say that the majority of bar fights start with a right, but in the street, who knows? Any thoughts?

------------------
Good training,
David


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 1999 8:47 pm 
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Location: LA, CA, USA
David,

I had exactly one lesson from an amateur boxer on how to hit the bag, and he actually told me that I should keep my fist loose except for when I made contact with the bag. In other words, he told me to tighten the fist as I hit. I don't know if he was an unusual exception, or if amateurs and pros hit differently in this manner.

My Jun Fan Gung Fu (which some call JKD) encourages looseness except for at the moment of contact. Bruce Lee's punching methods come from Western Boxing and Wing Chun, and I'd say that we tend to emphasize the boxing punches (especially the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut) more so than the Wing Chun ones.

The point about wraps is a good one.

Scaramouche


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 1999 6:15 am 
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Location: Randolph Ma USA
Van Canna Sensei,

I feel that many good points were made here of which i agree with. However, i would like to just comment on a few things.

I agree that most real fights will end up in sloppy affairs and will esculate
quickly in a short amount of time, with little or no time to respond. However, in the few confrontations that i have had where i felt my trainning "kicked in" and helped, it was "awareness" of the danger first, "positioning" of myself second and "response" to the physical attack third that worked best for me in walking away without injury.

I realize that we are not "invincible" simply because we study a "self defense" system. Surely we have not a shield of armour on us because of our aquired rank. Yes, the "group effect" as you refer to or better yet "martial masterbation" (good one) does exsist and many do have false beliefs in their abilities and misconceptions of reality.
However, i would like to believe that the statement:
#4 Trained martial artist will "forget" all they have learned and resort to primal animalistic fury".
hopefully only has a bit of truth to it and maybe not the "ultimate" truth?

Certainly i would not want to have to test my training against a 6'+ 240lb. solid animal comming full force, hungry & mean! "Winning by loosing" certainly might be a good option at this point, or how about "fight or flight"? Avoidence might be good ? At any rate i do believe to fight should always be the last "choice", if possible!

Another good point made being :
#6 "You must learn to fury the "beast within" to charge your strikes with the necessary power while you still have a shot at surviving the encounter, i.e, you have not yet been damaged too bad physically or beaten psychologically"

How true! I would like to believe that the content in that statement may have been partially what helped me.

Kicking above the waist is not very effective in a real fight. You make mention of. I must admit, i only used two kicks in one multiple attack situation, a spinning back kick to the mid section and a straight back kick to the same. Yes, it backed him up and stopped him from coming in again. In one other situation, a front kick worked. Unfortunately, it took three of them to stop him.

My point here is just to say that "some times" this stuff really works and at other times, who knows, you may never get one shot off!

Yes, we must seperate the "art" from the "application" but i just don't want some people to think that it is all "useless" and a waste of time to practice for years, because it might not work when we need it?

You have a great way of putting things and i am enjoying starting to read some of it. I'm just not sure if i always understand what your saying. Good stuff!

By the way, a palm heel strike to the side of the head works well also, in a "real" situation!

Respectfully,




------------------
Gary S.


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 1999 9:53 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
Regarding boxer's fists, the proper way is to keep them loose and to tighten on contact. This allows for speed in reaching the target and focused energy on impact. The problem is that when one constantly trains with hand wraps and gloves, one becomes used to having the fists backed up. That is purpose fo the wraps and the palm piece in the bag gloves. Going from wraps and gloves in everyday training to bare knuckle full power strikes is a "shocking" experience. The wrists are weaker and the fists just don't close quite tight enough. (This was my experience of it following several years of primarily boxing training.)

david


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:48 pm 
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Lets us not forget the purpose of the martial arts. Self Preservation. If you are in it for something other than that then perhaps your much more then a martial artist, or perhaps not martial at all. In my opinion the whole term "martial arts" is a foolish one. The is nothing artsy about busting open your knuckles on some thugs teeth, or the feeling of a man's knee contorting and shattering under the force of your side kick. I am not saying that you shouldn't be in it for the art or health benefits, just be sure to keep self preservation your primary focus. And as Van Sensei said,

"in real fights even trained martial artists will "forget" all they have learned and resort to primal animalistic fury ; they are consumed by primitive anger and blood lust aimed at their opponent"

so is there a point to practicicing 57 different techniques to use against an incomming hook punch? Find what works and use it, discard the rest...simplicity.

For #8: All is a very powerful word, but I do believe that most fights begin with a right hook. Confrontations don't nescessarily begin this way. A grab to your lapel, a shove, a wrist hold while he is yelling at you...When it comes down to real violence, my expereince tells me that a right hook is comming (or a grab to the throat).

A shooting arm to block the hook and a simultaneous palm heel strike to the side of the head with a shovel hook, shoken or something else to the lower ribs (right into L14 for that Kyusho bit). Follow that with a grab and pull to his head and a knee to his groin, or nose if you get the head down low enough. Quick, cheap and dirty. Talk about complementary opposing forces, a strike directed left at the high gate of the body at the same time as a strike directed right to the lower gate, like a vise.

-Collin


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 1999 4:46 am 
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"If you're going
to use open hand strikes, practice those or you're going to revert
right to a fist.

" David"

True to a certain extent ! lots of Uechi people I have debriefed tell me that in spite of their long years of training in an open handed system { Uechi} under the stress of the fight, they mostly used the closed fist ! I have written before that the primal brain will revert us back to the ape's primal weapon …the fist !!

Allen wrote : "And how many karateka of today actually train to toughen their
hands so they can hit someone solid? One out of 100? One out of
1,000? Even a higher ratio?"

Very true ! How many really hit the bag on regular basis ? How many do "impact training" ? How much time do you really spend on conditioning ? Think about it … but you do spend lots of time on " martial masturbation " i.e., prearranged kumite !!

Gary wrote :" However, I would like to believe that the statement:
#4 Trained martial artist will "forget" all they have learned and
resort to primal animalistic fury".
hopefully only has a bit of truth to it and maybe not the "ultimate"
truth?"

The message here is that most of us [ there are a few exceptions] , in the grip of "fight or flight" will naturally resort to gross motor movements of a very basic nature ! The best karate systems are the ones which have a foundation of simple powerful applications [ no frills] which follow this concept and " launch" to match the body's retrogressive response ! As basic and as "simple" Uechi is , there are still lots of techniques we practice which will never come to us as "primary" in the short few seconds of a fight under the stress of the moment ! I know some of you disagree , but then again you are entitled to your own dreams !

Peyton Quinn and others " in the know" observe that your survival depends upon your minimizing reaction time by reducing your choices of response action to the barest strongest stress proof denominator ! …." Reliance on a variety of techniques can confuse the mind , divide the defender's consciousness and place a barrier between the attack and the response " { Quinn}
Try to imagine what techniques will most likely surface for you out of your katas in a two to five seconds fight against a "football" type assailant charging you like a bear ! You'd be surprised !!

Gary wrote "
"Winning by
" loosing" certainly might be a good option"

In some desperate cases it might be tempting to offer your buttocks to your enemy like the male baboons do ; a baboon can be trusted ; a man cannot ….would you want to take that chance ? That is a strategic , individualistic choice !

Gary wrote "My point here is just to say that "some times" this stuff really works
and at other times, who knows, you may never get one shot off!"

True ! Success is never guaranteed ! Look at police files of shootings ; some people get shot 25 times and keep coming and kill the police officer ! Even a powerful handgun in your hands is no guarantee you will come out alive !

Gary wrote "but I just
don't want some people to think that it is all "useless""

If you read Peyton's book you will see that he suggests some very direct simple moves which are all contained in Uechi Ryu ! Those are the ones you should work on constantly in perception and preempting drills with the utmost explosion !

Collin wrote "so is there a point to practicing 57 different techniques to use
against an incoming hook punch? Find what works and use it,
discard the rest...simplicity."

Well said brother , and welcome to my forum …I like your no-nonsense approach !

Peace


------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 1999 9:45 pm 
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Posts: 55
Location: Portsmouth,NH,US
Just a quick thought...
I took a walk in the park during lunch break today. I happened to overhear a man verbally abusing a woman at the top of his voice. "I don't believe this," I thought, and turned in the direction of the shouting. It was a punk, of course, looking like he was ready to strike her, but still in the "interview" phase of confrontation.

Mindset: If I commit, I have to follow through effectively. No use getting punched out. Rising block, open hand strike, then whatever...

As I close in, he retreats. She nails him with several curses, then retreats in my general direction, crying. She acknowledges my presence and I move on.

Bottom line: This thread is "the right stuff." It is a key element of my Uechi training, by no means at odds with kata or exercises or kumite.

One minor point. The "mental masturbation" of prearranged kumite is, at the kyu level, an excellent way to plant "mindset seeds," eg dealing with contact, learning to deflect, move smart, etc.

Kudos, Van. Another swish from the three point line.

Michael


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 1999 12:42 am 
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Location: Randolph Ma USA
Van Canna Sensei,

My intent of meaning as to "Winning by loosing" is only as to imply that one may consider trying to avoid the escalating of the "physical confrontation" be it by softening the situation with tactful words or even apology for the misunderstanding. I would not turn my back upon an opponent or consider not responding to an attack!
I think i may have been misunderstood.
I simply do not think that it is "smart" to chance possibility of getting hurt just to prove a point. If there is "no choice" then of course try to take out the opponent as quickly as possible.

As you once said " Either way you may loose. On the street getting your ass handed to you, or in court being prosicuted as a "martial artist" having used to much force." I believe it was something on that line?


Certainly i would agree that "many" of the movements we practice in uechiryu or other styles would not be "practical" in a threatening situation. However, one thing about "Uechi-ryu" that i do like is that we do work on "In Close" technics that do not require any "fancy" or "gymnastic" like movements. Very good for us "older" guys. You think?

The "Expolsive Power" that Art Rebesa Sensei refers to in his book certainly helps one to understand what hitting someone is all about.

I will get the book by "Peyton Quinn" that you refer to and i look foward to seeing what he has to say.


Respectfully,


------------------
Gary S.


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 1999 1:47 am 
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Van sensei: I read Quinn's 'Real Fighting' a few months ago after you (and I believe Lori L.) posted a must read list. In regards to the points you make above, Quinn made a point of stressing the need for each individual to develop and perfect 'their' one and only reliable technique. His is 'come see the stars.

CSTS is a simple three point counter to a right punch or cross, and it looks alot like a kyusho three point sequence (Quinn actually notes that in the book but does not comment on the effectiveness of kyusho). The right hand strikes down on the upper forearm, the left down on the wrist and the right finishes with an open backhand to the side of the face. The stars come out and the lights go off!

This is the sequence I have swiped and can do it quickly. Also, I practice it righty and lefty as you might someday face a lefty. As a lefty myself, this is not too difficult.

Quinn does not attack specific points but the arm and face provide a plethora of good spots to hit. I can see a few things that kyusho would add, perhaps using your left hand to stretch the arm or to pinch points on the wrist before backhanding the face. While this looks nice in practice, it requires time and more practice so I stick to the simple sequence Quinn describes.

Would I be able to pull it of in a real fight? I'd certainly try to.

Rich


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 1999 3:34 am 
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Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Hi Rich:

I'm not trying to "pick apart" your post. Hell, I get pissed when someone grabs a line from nowhere and tries to dissect mine!

Still, just wanted to add this thought:

You finish by asking rhetorically, "Could I pull this off in a fight? I don't know, but I would try!"

When I first started to spar, I often tried to "pull things off" too. More often then not, the only thing I was pulling was my own d**k!

David Moy says it alot and I agree: When asked "What would you do in such and such situation?", respond by saying very honestly, "I have NO idea!!"

Fact is, trying to pull something off in a fight is a lot like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. If you're strong enough, anything's possible, but it's better to use the right tool for the right job at the right time.

My point? Train for technique, yes. Heck, we all have our favorites. But in the face of violence act and react. Just when your sure your attacker's coming with his right, there's his left.

Just a word to the wise, and a caveat for our junior readers. THINGS WILL NOT HAPPEN AS YOU EXPECT!! The straight right punch you're training for at your dojo will probably be the left you mentioned, thrown by a skinny street punk who just spit in your face!

And the only one seeing stars in that situation will be you and me!

For what it's worth. . .

Gary

------------------
Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury


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