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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 1999 2:56 pm 
Cecil,

Are you more interested in the life of ONE or are you interested in the life of more than one. By the time you rooftop sniper has killed a few it should be apparent that he is not going to stop until stopped.

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 1999 8:23 pm 
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Hello Chatters,

A friend who frequents your web site discussed one of your "thread" moral/ethical with me, asking my opinion. As the discussion deepened he directed me to your chat room to review the ongoing dialogues. I understand that most of the dialogue is related to self-defense arts/philosophies/moral issues. However, they do not stand alone - spillover effects each culture and ideology. I found the dialogue extremely interesting.

My question: In Moral Dilemma and Moral Dilemma Continued - isn't this colloquy articulating the age-old question "What Is The Meaning of Life."

To All A Little Peace

Sherri


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 1999 9:06 pm 
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Posts: 670
Welcome Sherri!

Maybe not the meaning of life per se, but perhaps the value of life. It could be argued that the participants here deply value all lives, their own, family, friends, that is why most have chosen to pursue self defense practices of one form or another.

Lawyers can argue in court over the value of a life lost in air crash i.e. can we place a higher value on the life of a CEO versus a clerk? This too is a moral dilemna that juries (ordinary folks like us) deal with often.

Sooooo.. if one can place a value on life in one instance, why not another such as the one being discussed here?

VTY

Kevin


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 1999 10:37 pm 
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Hi Sherri ,

Welcome to my forum ! You pose an interesting question ! But help us place it in perspective , i.e., how do you relate the question to the dilemma of the deranged gunman on the tower ? I am looking for any new fresh slant you care to offer !

Kevin wrote ""The action you chose to take in the
next moment will decide the life of one of two people, a deranged
gunman or an innocent victim." This is how I looked at it when it
was first posed. I think I would find less anguish in knowing I
saved a life than justifiably taking one."

How do we argue against Kevin's point ??

My question : " /// What if we were to argue
that God is also saving the shooter by using you as the
compassionate instrument to kill him !! What message would you
garner from this" ///

Any idea what I am looking for with this question ?

Peace,


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 12:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 09, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 5
Okay-

I really like this type of intellectual thinking...

Kevin: Meaning of life = value of life
One does not exist without the other - you are discussing degrees.

Van: God saving shooter by my being compassionate vehicle of his death.

Do I have any idea what you are looking for with this question.

I stopped trying to be a mind reader after my divorce - no, just kidding.

Response: Being a disciple of a GOD absolves individual responsibility for self and actions. "I did it in the name of _____(supply your own god). How many people have died using this mantra.

The same issue can be reversed negatively. "The DEVIL made me do it." Any outside force/entity/whatever (UNLESS I AM GOD) still absolves individual responsibility for any action. Therefore, if this is the belief there is no moral or ethical dilemma.

The moral dilemma arises when one is faced with a right or wrong choice - as posited by your original question. It involves a judgment system specific to the individual and that individual's value system which in turn determines what is and is not appropriate.

If one holds that life is valuable that is equated to a truism then we should abhor all killing. If antiabortion people are really into right to life - then you can't have a death penalty, executions, etc. because life supercedes whatever someone does.

When a god or other moral/ethical principle is used as a form of rationalization for an act or type of behavior then we absolve ourselves from individual responsibility and therein dissolve any dilemma. There is no question - you just do it!

Meaning automatically connotes value and vice versa.

Well - so much for my 2.5 cents.

All dialogue expands the mind!

Sherri


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 2:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
Dear Allen-san,

Of course I would shoot the guy. But I'm sure that the brain tumor thing would make me feel bad about it. It was something I hadn't considered and I'm sure others haven't as well.

So if I'm ever in that situation, I guess I'll say "Dear Lord, I hope this man doesn't have a brain tumor. Now please help me aim."

But: I'm am sure there has got to be one person out there who may hesitate now because of the remote chance of a tumor.

Cecil.

Monkey Wrench#2: SUPPOSE THE GUNMAN IS A RELATIVE????!!!!! LIKE YOUR BROTHER!!!! Now THAT would get to me! Almost to the point where I may foolishly try to shoot to maim, not kill. (I stole the idea from my wife. Hey, got to give credit where credit is due.)

Any thoughts?? (Van, you sure came up with a good topic! This is about as real as we can get online!!!!)

Cecil

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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 4:41 am 
Cecil,

I'll bet there are a lot of people [probably at least 50%] out there who couldn't pull a trigger on someone even if they had to. It is unnatural to take a human life except maybe as the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime.

Maybe? Capital punishment is scary. I wonder how many innocent people in death row have been executed.

I'll throw your monkey wrench#2 right back at you. Suppose your brother sent lead whizzing past your head. Would you even think about it? Maybe that was a bad example but if you were armed and someone was firing at you, would you shoot first (meaning without hesitation) then ask questions later.

------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 06-09-99).]


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 5:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 159
Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
Van,
I think I will make these my closing comments on this topic...

Most good dilemmas can become a diabolical emotional trap, as the abortion issue has become for our society!

You asked, What if you were presented with this counterpoint : "The first pull of the trigger will result in the death of an innocent child down below ! How will you face the family of the dead child knowing well that you had the power of life over his death by the simple expedient of pulling the trigger of your gun ? How will you face yourself in the years to come when that child's limp body will come to you in dreams ? How will you be able to face and talk and explain to your own child the decision you made ?

I will have to remind myself that I was not presented with a valid opportunity before hand...If one existed that could have prevented the death and was after the point of no return...Then I would have a problem...but in all cases I'd have to remember, I did my best at the time...That's all that's required of me.

Then you asked, Then you write "That is not to say that he isn't already sinful enough in the eyes
of a Holy God, to have condemnation as his just reward...But at
that point in time, only God has the just perspective and
prerogative."

Counterpoint: the old testament specifically authorizes taking human life justly : " Thou shalt not suffer a thief to live " { Deut :24:10 }


Yes. In the quote cited the theif has already passed the point of no return...in the position you propose for me...from my human temporal viewpoint...That point has not been reached "Before the sniper ______" and the blank in your picture probably would be the first shot...

to bad you never addressed my repaint of your dilemma...
Mindset not only deals with a willingness to stop a sniper...sometimes it's less blatant than that...and much harder. If you believe that abortion is the taking of the life of an unborn baby...


Rick Liebespach


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 5:54 am 
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Cecil-san ,

Bravo ! You have a way of finding the missing pieces of the puzzle thorough the shifting sands of moral decay !

Could we argue that your first impressions of the madman acting in a " deranged ' state could suggest a mental as well as a physical disease about to impact on a large number of innocents ? I believe it was in the movie " The Andromeda strain" that infected scientists in the sealed lab were locked in to die so that the rest of the human race could live on !

Here is what a pacifist would say : " If a deranged criminal attacks in homicidal fury ,or an infected person is about to destroy the human race , isn't that the will of God ? How can you be so arrogant as to take upon yourself the power of life or death over another human life ? "

The counterpoint : " Maybe ! But if God allows you to fight back or to take action , then is it not also God's will ? "

Say you have no clue about the tumor and you kill the sniper ___ "Would you NOW feel guilty if
you'd killed him then later found out he was merely sick?"

The answer could be that through the will of God you were subliminally directed to apply the concept of "triage" i.e., the selection of which victim has the best chance to continue to be a viable human being and will, therefore , be rescued ! The rescue being the killing of the madman !

Peace ,


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 5:56 am 
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Posts: 670
Cecil, "fill him full of holes" EXACTLY!

I've had conversations in the past with a friend who is a cop and this is the advice he gave me if in the situation. Empty the gun if you have to. two reasons, Van stated the first, the second, dead men can't testify at a trial.

Question? why would it be so difficult and agonizing a decision to pull the trigger? I read about grandmas in Florida popping dirt bags with 22's occassionally without much problem.

Van, How about phrasing the scenario even more simply? (I never claimed to be too deep) i.e. "The action you chose to take in the next moment will decide the life of one of two people, a deranged gunman or an innocent victim." This is how I looked at it when it was first posed. I think I would find less anguish in knowing I saved a life than justifiably taking one. Just me.

Kevin


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:06 am 
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Sherri ,

Wow …you are a smart one !

" Van: God saving shooter by my being compassionate vehicle of
his death.

Sherri __ " Do I have any idea what you are looking for with this question.

I stopped trying to be a mind reader after my divorce - no, just
kidding."

Sherri ----- Response: Being a disciple of a GOD absolves individual
responsibility for self and actions. "I did it in the name of
_____(supply your own god). How many people have died using
this mantra. "

Sherri , you wrote ; "The moral dilemma arises when one is faced with a right or wrong
choice - as posited by your original question. It involves a
judgment system specific to the individual and that individual's
value system which in turn determines what is and is not
appropriate."

Comments: If we are to believe the fundamental message of any God ,{ thou shall not kill }; then we still have a dilemma in the mind of the man trapped in the tower with a gun in his hand behind the back of the sniper !

Yet we could argue " God made me do it as opposed to the devil" I.e., the man killing the sniper is using the emotional disciplines and mechanism created by man through presumably God given intelligence and skill , to rescue innocent human beings from a death they have done nothing to warrant !

One might ask : is it more moral for the innocents below to depart their earthly bodies as murder victims than to taint your soul by killing the deranged criminal who is about to punch their transfer tickets into the Hereafter ?

Cecil : about the sniper turning out to be a relative ……DR Michael Knight offered a similar scenario which for the purpose of this exercise is a counter dilemma for another day in the sun ! For the moment lets define the choices strictly flowing from the facts as given by the tower caper !

Back to you Rick : you wrote ""That is not to say that he isn't
already sinful enough in the eyes
of a Holy God, to have condemnation as his just reward...But at
that point in time,[ before the first shot is fired] only God has the just perspective and
prerogative."

There is no doubt in your mind the deranged man is about to fire ! You can prevent the death of the first innocent victim by pulling the trigger of your gun !
Using "condemnation" as the buzz word… a question flowing from it might be : which is worse , destroying a man's soul or his earthly body ? Do you see where this question leads to ?


"The abortionist being the sniper.
The victims in the street below being the unborn babies he
mutilates or poisons, and the mothers he rips of their
motherhood.
The person who is trying to stop the abortion from taking place
would be the person on the roof with the handgun.!

Abortion ? Not on my forum __-I won't even go there and I suggest that , you gentle readers, refrain from making such references as it is a very volatile subject !

Peace,



------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:09 pm 
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JD, Aye.

Kevin


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
To Van:

Okay, I'll stick with the given (which is really intense enough!)

To Allen M.:

Dude, I honestly don't know. I'd like to think that I would, but I tell you I'd really have a tough time with it!

To All:

Just like Van has been saying, the book I just got from the library called "The Brain" states that working out our responses to certain situations ahead of time is a good way to prepare. It helps to try to decide what you THINK you might do NOW instead of when you're in the thick of it.

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 1999 10:35 pm 
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J.D.-san ,

Aye !

As dr. X points out __ there are really no winners ever in moral debates Yet people are consumed with the thought of "winning" by the constant of "equivocation" !

Yet the exercise is very useful , in that it provides a real stage from which to launch fervent bullets of the soul reflecting back in the emotional space of our mind !

As Rick Liebespach may have bailed out from the debate and may not address this question , I repeat it for any of you willing to take a shot[ no pun] at it : "There is no doubt in your mind the deranged man is about to fire !
You can prevent the death of the first innocent victim by pulling
the trigger of your gun !
Using "condemnation" as the buzz word… a question flowing from
it might be : which is worse , destroying a man's soul or his
earthly body ? Do you see where this question leads to ?" Trust me , very important to discuss !!

Cecil , can you pass more information on your book " The brain" ? I would like to purchase it __ how about a review ??

Peace,




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Van Canna


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 Post subject: MORAL DILEMMA--CONTINUED
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 1999 5:25 am 
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Now we are getting somewhere ! Sherri --how about it ? Would you like to engage our diabolical doctor X ??

Peace ,

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Van Canna


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