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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 1999 2:47 pm 
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Gary writes "Personally, I do not train with weapons
because I KNOW that the same statistics you quote say I will NOT
BE HOLDING ONE in the moment I need it!"

True ! It's like the old police saying "your gun is no good unless it is in your hand "__ The only way to look at weapons is in the force continuum context i.e.,Your empty hand techniques first , hopefully enough to stop the fight , buying you time and space for the next level of force … from non lethal to lethal weapons !

Mac Young writes that a weapon is nothing more than an extension of your self ; think about what he is saying __ all the weapons in the world will do you no good unless you have the skills and , more important , the mental resolve to use them !

Most people carry weapons but could not bring themselves to use them ..so they either are not pulled , given a chance, or they end up being taken away from you and used against you ! Think about this again !

Mac Young goes on to say that people think a weapon replaces thinking …as in most people go stupid when they buy a gun , i.e., they do not spend the time and money to attend specialized handgun combat schools ; they carry them in ways they will never be able to access them quickly under stress; they advertise the fact they are armed etc.


" Weapons are used to maim and kill. If you want to scare people with a weapon , put it away as you are not ready for weapons ! You also better expect for your opponent to overkill on you because you scared him a little too effectively "

Gary "If sparring is not the "real thing" (and I, like
you believe this to be true), good luck to you "kata queens" who
think that you're ready for the Grim Reaper after your nightly
Sanchin! HA!"

Well said ! Sparring is a very important aspect of mind and body conditioning for the real thing ! If you don't spar hard { not the mutual masturbation session I see in most dojos } you will never be at your best against the real thing !

Okay I can hear it now …but did Kanbun or Kanei or any of the Masters spar ? Did they do something different then which they did not share with us that made them so invincible ?

Gordi-san has expressed his willingness to answer any and all questions we may have ! Gordi , if you are reading this , would you tell us what Toyama sensei's perception is of Kanbun's sparring /training practices for the real thing other than the three katas and conditioning ? What did his student use for technique when he killed his assailant ? Thank you !


We have some seniors from way back , here in the US , who disdain sparring …one or two were good fighters themselves once , then "found religion" and became "anti sparring " ! A few were so arrogant and conceited they would not even congratulate our old Uechi fighters winning National titles ….they sort of looked down on the fighters with contempt, thus masking their insecurities and imbecilic "prowess" ! Not realizing that even their katas gave them away as "non fighters" …." Non fighters" move in certain ways that flag their ineptitude In the real thing ! I can spot them by heir first opening movements ! Then you take strong fighters such as Gary Khoury and you see a totally different kata, assuming you know what you are looking for !

History of American practitioners reflects that the best performers in a real fight were always the tournament players or hard dojo fighters !

I can tell you that if I had a choice in picking someone to stand next to me going into a real fight . it would be someone like Kyohide Shinjio , Gary Khoury , Tracy Rose , Clarence Wilder , Art Rabesa ,Bob Campbell, Bob Bethoney , Jim Maloney, Al Wharton et al !!



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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 1999 8:48 pm 
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Gary:

I apologize for my previous response to your posting. I in no way intended to categorize you. In fact, it seems to me that you have a great feel for what needs to be in martial arts training. I was simply expressing my beliefs on sparring, that one should not fall into a mode where they believe they know how to "fight" because they win trophies in the arena. I also know that you are not one of those individuals.

I think sparring fails some people in that it teaches them how to combat other martial artists. How to flow in an exchange of well-trained techniques. But how often do we really face another well trained martial artist on the street? Where sparring excels as a training medium is in that it teaches timming and movement. With out sparring you cannot become a complete martial artist.

-Collin


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 1999 9:11 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Van and Gary Sensei:

Practice is not reality.

Except when you are practicing.

Practice is not "Game Time" or "For Real" unless you make it so---this is not to say you shouldn't.

The firing line is training. Kata is training, but holds other benefits. Combat remains different.

But I wouldn't wish combat on anyone without training.

JOHN

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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 1999 11:30 pm 
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Posts: 20
Location: Avondale Az USA
Joe Maddona in Birds of doom disagrees with me when I say that people aer going overboard on grappling. Well as a jujutsuka of over 23 years and former state AAU wrestling chapion I am not opposed to ground fighting - but I still think people are going overboard. Avoid it if you can. WHen they hit the ground do not volunatirly go down after them - instead picture them as a soccar ball. It is ashorter distance for your nice leather covered foot to reach them then it is for your whole body to drop on them.
Second Madonna says he prefers a throat strike. I bet dollars to dougnuts he has never hit someone with such a throat strike. I have taken hundreds of such strikes to the throat and smile every time when the person sprains his hand etc. My friends have taken such strikes from Herschel Walker, pro boxers andf my instructor even once took a baseball bat strike from a pro baseball player (Philadelphia Phillies). If he catches someone completely unwares, or some pencil neck geek with his deadly strike to the throat perhaps, but if he is in such a position to hit someone so unprepared shame on him.
I still stand by my comments - open hand stand up striking works well.

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 07-04-99).]


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 1999 3:40 am 
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Reminds of a time that I shoved a white hot iron poker through my eye, yep, didn't even phase me.

In Awe,
-Collin


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:46 am 
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Fight v.combat

Perennial question /dilemma !!

How about this :

1] People fresh from combat are often described as having the thousand mile stare !

2] Go in hard and fast , don't wait , hesitate or dance around ! It's straight forward maiming time !

3] You are in a situation that could result in your death or maiming , you are in combat ! If a weapon is pulled , it's combat ! If someone ambushes you is combat !

4] In combat you have to get mad-dog mean ; hurt the son of a bitch more than he ever dreamed of hurting you !

5] You must be spiritually ready for combat , even more so than physically !

6] combat survivors possess ruthless ferocity and a vicious animalistic "kill or die" attitude that is indifferent to the adversary's welfare !

7] If you think of your opponent as a human being you are lost !

8] If forbearance overrides fury you are lost !

9] If restraint blocks your most vicious efforts , you might as well give up !

10] Ruthlessness , more than skill or technique , is the most significant factor in being effective with a fighting knife !

11] What you "know" and did not do ; what you "could have done" and any other such nonsense will sound hollow to the person administering the last rites to you after the fact !

12] Close quarters battle between single opponents is brutal, savage and allows for no quarters in spite of your lotus dreams !

13] In the training for combat , the martial artist must be taught to cultivate the ability to bring forth the same degree of furious rage and aggression as the madman !

14] Battles are won by offense , not defense !

15] You may believe all you want about putting a man down easy in a fight ,but if the will to destroy is not infused into every technique that is executed , there is little chance of worthwhile results in serious combat !

As written by Animal Mac Young and professor Bradley Steiner !


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 1999 5:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
J.D. writes: "On the other hand there are those who go to far, [who] think that just because they can win a tournament or wipe out their dojo they are invincible in any situation. SUCH PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT SPARRING IS A PREPARATORY TOOL.

We do not know how we will react in a situation until we encounter it. We can try to prepare ourselves the best we can."

Amen, brother. I guess that says it all!

Keep training & Keep questioning!

Gary

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Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:11 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
To All:

The only point I was trying to make was essentially "be here now" and do not denigrate your practice even though it is, after all, only practice.

It is a goal in itself, to be sure, to do (DO) things correctly.

Having said this, read Sensei Canna's post twice.


JOHN T.

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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 1999 6:17 pm 
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Posts: 20
Location: Avondale Az USA
Van Canna really is getting to the point of combat by quoting from these other sources. As Musashi said (to paraphrase) is do not think about block and cut, just think cut.
My point in mentioning taking full body strikes is not to brag or impress (or worse yet denigrate the practice into a carnival side show) but that to stress two points : 1) the so called deadly points (testicles, throat etc) are not SURE things 2) in most fights no matter how good you are you are going to probably get hit (from behind, or from the 3-4 guys who attack you when you are alone), and if you are WORRYING about taking a shot you will think defense. If you don't weat a few shots to the throat or groin you don't even think about blocking - you just step in and knock them to the floor.
I do not know much about Uechi ryu other than what I have read in Matton Shihans books, but this I do know : they (like the association I belong to) believe in being able to take shots. I have seen some of the Uechi ryu guys take some good shots. The Uechi ryu guys I have seen do not pad up head to toe in foam pads so they end up looking like a beer can in a foam cozy. They get in and hit and take some hits. Styles that wear lots of foam pads often have no idea what its like to get hit for real (same is true of boxers) and so they deep dowsn inside fear it. Fear kills -- even before the body dies.


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 1999 8:56 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Bob:

I would not intentionally "put down" anything anyone puts forth on a forum, in good faith, which is intended to help our Practice and our ability to defend ourselves.

I tell students:

a. "You're gonna take hits"
b. "if, in a social situation, you let someone come inside your "circle" he will be able to hit you," thus the decision as to who, how and when to trust is important, and is ongoing.
c. "you're going to get hit."


JOHN


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 1999 2:18 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 12, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 25
Location: bridgewater ma. u.s.a
van'
offence not defence is so true.
when you think you might lose you lose
most of the time.when ever i spar or grappel & feel tired i lose.but 9 out
of ten i think no matter what,im not
losing i dont.the mind is a funny thing.

now to comment on BOBS reply:
first every one has there own opinion.
well dollar for doghnuts (can we make-
that pizza? ) your right. i never hit
someone with that strike.one reason
ive never been in a life death battle.
and in sparring ,if someone uses a dangerous technique shame on them !!!
its ment for kata and the bag !!!
but when i do spar ive ended matches
real fast when i just grab the throat.
sorry, im from the old school. i have
to see this bat condition throat.
dont get me wrong. i know the body can
do some weird sh*t. i myself broken
2x4s with my shins during demo's with
sensi-bethony.and i agree not to follow
them to the floor.but play soccer with
them while their down there!!
anywho your not going to win every fight
match,game thats life.
by the way bob what do you study?

chow

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Joe


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 1999 8:31 pm 
Joe,

Was it you I took pictures of once breaking a 2x4 at Bobby's dojo?

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 1999 8:50 pm 
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Joe Madonna is nobody to mess around with ! He is one of those no-nonsense "hard-bodies" that will launch you into the next dimension while some of you remain busy chewing on traditional hokum !

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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 1999 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
"WHen they hit the ground do not volunatirly go down after them - instead picture them as a soccar ball. "

Now that is something I can agree with. Despite my recent exposure to Judo, I still feel that the "soccar ball" approach is all the groundfighting I need in a real fight. I will train the other stuff (groundfighting is challenging and fun), but I will never forget how to kick 'im when he's down.

Some of you may value viciousness over techinque/skill. I don't necessarily value aggressiveness over skill. What I include in skill is mental focus: being able to have enough emotional control so that sometimes you can move out of the way and let someone hurt themselves instead of you having to do all of the pounding. Being mean is cool, but I've seen people go into situations with total aggressiveness get knocked down/out/silly by a more skilled, more focussed opponent. Usually the most aggressive fighter will also will a tournament, but the street altercations I have seen, the props end up going to the person who can keep their head enough to stretch their attacker out with their attacks by hitting them in the right places at the right time.

My two cents,

Cecil

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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 1999 12:58 am 
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Joined: Wed May 12, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 25
Location: bridgewater ma. u.s.a
VAN ,
i looked up hokum !!!
were do you find these words???
even 1/2 the webster searches had
nothing.but i found it.thats the best
compliment i have ever gotten.it means
alot , especially comming from you.
because YOUR THE MAN !!! i just try my
best.do you still teach at sensi-
BETHONEY'S school?
too allen m. was that the time we did
the demo for cable t.v? as far as i know
just bob,me,and this kid izzy that i
showed how to trian for it, did that brake at different times.
well i just had to thank you van.

chow

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Joe


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