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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 1999 7:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 123
Cecil:

I absolutely agree with you that skill surpasses rage in effectiveness, but without some aggresive emotions, your techniques will bounce off of the assailant like nerf darts.

-Collin


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 1999 9:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Just a bit of legal self defense.

Although I tend to agree with the "soccer" analogy one caveat of this is that you leave yourself potentially open to being legally considered the aggressor. In the eyes of witnesses or the police you will be the one beating on the "poor guy" on the ground.

If it were me and if I were thinking right a a few good old kicks (side kick or if you want to be a show off an axe kick (not recommended)) to the top of the knees or upper leg should slow down the opponent enough that I can easily outrun him. This also is probably a more legally defensible action.

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 1999 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
Imagine trying to explain that to Master Uechi. "This guy just tried to rob and/or kill me. So, using all the skill and techniques you have mastered and passed down to us, I just wanted to bruise his leg so that I can get a lead in running away from him and crawl under my bed hoping he won't suuuuuuuuuue me." He would probably feel that something was lost in the translation.

Two quick points: 1. It's your duty to disable an assailant so that they can not do it to you again. Even in the movies they always come back. Even if they reach out of the grave.?!.
1a. As Tom Powers puts it: "Unless you finish them off completely (disable not kill someone, I hope he meant) and get out of there you are asking for trouble.
2. "If you ain't got nothin' you got nothin' to lose." Anyone who has any assets in their own name and thereby vulnerable to loss by suit, please call me. Wouldn't you prefer to lose them to someone you know (me) rather than a perfect stranger, probably one you dislike enough to have been in a fight with.
2a. Actually I'd hate to see anyone lose anything unjustly. I would be glad to share information, off line, which I have worked on with several attorneys that provides Asset Protection.

http://www.massrealestate.net


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 1999 1:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
"1. It's your duty to disable an assailant so that they can not do it to you again. Even in the movies they always come back. Even if they reach out of the grave.?!."

I disagree partially (it depends on your definition of disable ... which from 1a) I can see you think of it as something entirely different that I do).

Disable your assailant? If you can get away with a simple knee strike to the gut and then outrun him take it (that of course is a HUGE if, but it is just an example). Unless there are some mitigating circumstances (for example, you would be abandoning your wife and child... then you must stay and fight, BUT note that this gives you much more legal power to stay and fight). But if you are sticking around to fight when you have a good chance (*) to flee then, in my view, you are being foolish and you will ultimately get what is coming to you:

a) his buddies will stumble upon the fight and pummel you.
b) the police will stumble upon the fight and arrest you both and you my fine martial artist friends will get the worse of it if you have caused serious damage to the assailant unless there are witnesses available to back up your claims that it was all in self defense.
c) you will eventually fall victim to the fortunes (luck) of battle.

Is it fair that the law turns on those who defend themselves? Nope, but it happens ... and it happens a lot.

"1a. As Tom Powers puts it: "Unless you finish them off completely (disable not kill someone, I hope he meant) and get out of there you are asking for trouble."

If my opponent cannot pursue me, in my view, this qualifies as finished off completely. He is no longer of any threat. Again, unless there are mitigating circumstances.

If you have to stay and fight ... stay and fight, and keep hitting your attacker with your most powerful blows, but the ultimate goal of self defense is to survive preferably without taking any long lasting damage. Of course, what actions to take that will bring you to that goal vary from situation to situation, but in many cases this means strike (usually several times of course) and flee.

My very first instructor once told me: "Your odds of defending yourself go up the more brutal you are willing to be. Imagine trying to defend yourself with just a slap? Then imagine that you are willing to not just slap but punch? Then imagine you are willing to kick too? And then imagine that you are willing to choke somebody out? And then imagine you are willing to put your attackers head into a concrete wall?"

There is no denying the truth of the quote, but the more brutal you are willing to be the more likely you leave yourself open to both civil and criminal charges. It is so very easy to say that it is no big deal to lose everything you have or to go to jail for a year or two .... when it isn't happening to you. Give me a call when (I hope never) this happens to you, and let me know how much fun it is. It is kind of like a real fight... everybody thinks they can win a real fight ... no problem, piece of cake ... then the real thing happens and as Van puts it so often their precious black belt is good for nothing more than lowering their casket into the ground. My suggestion: be somewhat mindful of the legal consequences of your actions. The repercussions are no walk in the park.

Osu!
Jason

P.s. - and please note I didn't say ANYTHING about "cowering under your bed". This is not about cowardice. Do not misunderstand the message ... fleeing is not cowardice. If given the chance to flee a battle before it starts I will take. Period. Unless there are mitigating circumstances.

(*) "Good chance". There is the problem. It can be difficult to evaluate your odds of escape in the middle of a fight.

============================================
Addendum

P.p.s. - I also didn't say anything about "giving him a bruise to the leg". One to three very hard shots to prone or semi-prone leg will do a lot more than a simple bruise. If you hit with the heel you will split the muscle and cause some serious muscle damage. You could even cause damage to the bone, possible a fracture ... unlikely but possibly a break. If you go for the knees, the damage will be even worse, but likely longer lasting. Now could he come after you legally for breaking his leg? Of course, but it is much more legally defensible that kicking him in the face and knocking out a few teeth (permanent disfigurement = big bucks).

And just to clarify a few other things that could be misunderstood.

The "strike and flee" solution doesn't always present itself. As a tough guess I would say it might show up between 25%-33% of the time ... but I might be being optimistic. Therefore, your primary goal is to fully disable. You should send blow after withering blow onto your opponent in the goal of knocking him senseless or knock him out. I, and others, have said this repeatedly and my two previous posts *certainly* should not be taken as withdrawing that opinion.

However, we were talking about when the person goes down. You do not want to grapple with him. You do not want to go down after him. And at least, in my view, and especially not in front of witnesses you don't want to beat him like a dog. If his is down you have an excellent chance to use the "strike and flee" solution.

Osu!
Jason

[This message has been edited by Jason Bernard (edited 07-08-99).]


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 1999 8:27 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 123
I think I have told this one before but here goes...

This reminds me of a time that I was walking through Capitol Park on my lunch break. A scantily clad and very robust individual came out of the bushes and told me that based on my look (business suit), I could probably afford to give him some change. I told him I couldn't, as I had only one bill for my lunch (the truth). This is when he, with the aid of Jim Bowie's namesake in his right hand (previously hidden from view), demanded that I turn over my wallet. I took one look at him and high tailed it in the other direction. He gave chase for about 25 meters, but I dusted him. I have to give thanks to my old highschool track coach Image

The moral of the story? Do what it takes to keep your ass intact. If that means you are backed into a corner and have no choice but to pulverize your attacker's knees and nose, DO IT! If that means that you can make a B-line straight to safety, DO IT!

-Collin


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 Post subject: BIRDS OF DOOM 2
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 1999 11:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
Collin,
but what if his buddies saw you,
or what if the police saw you,
or what if some witnesses saw you,
or what if some lawyers saw you brutally running away,
or what if ...
I think there is too much speculation about a simple situation.
If we have to figure out what to do on this forum, then we should be in law school postulating our career niche: Expensive divorce is going down, mediators are ruining our conflict ramp ups. OUI's (drunken driving) has leveled off to a hard core few who cannot afford us. Asbestos died in class action hell with John Manville's foresight. Lead paint poisoning hasn't borne fruit. How can we quickly identify anyone with money and a victim without it for redress and retribution. Product liability, smokers, tobacco, guns, what a wonderful, lucrative world .....
Collin, my early martial arts lessons I recall are similar to yours: If you can get out of it, do it. If your life is threatened explode. Practice your technique and it will be there when you need it.
P.S. Can anyone think of anything easier than getting into a fight? Aside from adding several alcoholic drinks of course.


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