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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 1999 3:07 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Van sensei, others with an opinion: At 4:30 pm today a man walked into the grocery store near my home and shot his ex to death. Then he went outside into the parking lot and shot himself. I stopped there on the way home at 5:30 for gas and the police were still 'cleaning up'.

Dilemma- Suppose I had left work early and was in the store as this was happening. I have a right to protect myself and innocent people but this is the bell tower scenario. Do I shoot him when the gun comes out? When he makes a threatening move? Or do I shoot him after he is clearly a murderer? Virginia is more reasonable than most states but I am certain I'd be getting legal council lined up right now had I been involved.

Thoughts?

Rich


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 1999 8:33 am 
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The right to self defense extends to others around you. If you saw him draw a pistol could you shoot him? I wouldn't say so. If you saw him point the pistol with an obvious attempt to kill, yes. Remember, most grociery marts have cameras to help support you. In any case, you could draw pistol and point it at him, tell him to drop his. If he turns his evil intent towards you, he eats lead. Of course this would draw some very unwanted attention to you. Egad, what a poser!

Still thinking,
-Collin


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 1999 10:47 am 
You'd become a national celebrity, Rich, making all the major headlines. If you would have been there at the time, you would have followed your heart and would have known what to do.

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 1999 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
If you had of been involved of course the best advice regardless of how obvious a matter of self defense (or being a good samariton (sp?)) hire a good lawyer and keep you mouth shut.

That being said, for the most part the law stands firmly on your side. Even the feeling of the common citizen would probably side with you, but of course anytime you "get involved" you are in essence taking a roll of the dice.

Now, the other question is when. Just this week on 20/20 they had a section about police training to make that shoot/no shoot decision. It was pretty interesting. From the looks of that show, and from what I know about this you do have to wait until there is some kind of real threat or a preceived real threat. Definitely legally you are safer to wait for the real threat but this puts you at much greater risk.

For example, if he says he has a gun all you have is a perceived threat. You could be in trouble if you blast him then. Roll the dice.

I would say if you can do it safely shoot (from behind and concealed would be nice) him once the gun is revealed, or perhaps draw your gun but not fire when he says he has a gun.

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 1999 2:28 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
More info in the news today about this crime. This guy was clearly a nut case. He emptied an S&W .40 clip into his ex, reloaded and kept firing. Seventeen shell casings were on the ground at the scene. The last from the shot he placed into his own head.

He had fired at her last year and was up for attempted murder but a kindly lawyer got that charge dropped. (That particular lawyer is now in jail for allegedly beating someone up a few days ago.) Also, there was an injunction against him from making contact with the victim. Boy, this is a case right out of DeBecker's book.

So, back to the dilemma. After a few shots were fired it would be pretty unambiguous about his intent. This is not a case for warning someone to stop. He was fixated on the outcome. A suicidal homicidal and maniac would probably turn and fire on anyone trying to deter him. This would be a case for two shots to the center of mass. Plus one.

This type of crime in the part of town where I live is really an anomaly. It is a good lesson that it can happen anywhere. And yes, my wife knew the victim as we have been shopping there for over ten years.

I'm interested in where and how he got the gun.

Rich


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 1999 1:15 pm 
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Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
JD How much do you usually charge for a hit like that?


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 1999 2:18 pm 
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Good thing you were not present during the shootout Rich.

Van presented a realistic senerio of what happens when someone "defends" himself. Hopefully he will repeat his discussion here one day. Back to your situation. . .

Rich walks into the store, just as the nutcase draws his gun and draws a bead on his ex wife. Quickdraw Rich, calmly puts six bullets from his new Titanium Gunslinger Special, center mass into the assailant.

The woman throws her arms around Rich, thanking him for his heroics. TV reports the event and provides Rich with his 15 minutes of fame.

Three days later, Rich gets a registered letter from a lawyer who, 10 minutes after the shooting, visited the woman at home and explained the facts of the shooting. . . as he saw them!

Rich had killed the man who was paying her alimony and child support! Instead of shooting the gun out of her ex's hand, Rich, a trained killer, emptied his gun on her poor ex husband. To substantiate this view, the lawyer pointed out the police report where the investigating officer asked Rich "Why did you shoot the man six times?" Rich answered "That's all the bullets I had in my gun!"

The woman agrees to sue Rich!

According to Van, Rich will spend at least $25,000.00 on pretrial hearings, investigations, etc.

Should Rich go to trial, he will spend another $25,000.00 defending himself.

Of course, the police may see the shooting in a different light and decide to go after Rich as well.

But for 15 minutes, Rich felt like a hero!


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 1999 12:56 am 
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True , quite a dilemma ; but let's analyze !

Combat Tactics :First of all you will be in denial and stupor and will hesitate …next __ never pull a gun on anyone you don't intend to shoot reflexively , unless you are behind cover , not just concealment ! as you pull a gun with the intention to talk , he will fire first and his action will beat your reaction …if you are lucky you will return fire as you collapse under his slugs , and luckier still you might get a hit on him , one hit out of 5 or 6 shots from your gun even at close range ! You stray bullets or his , may kill innocent bystanders, there might be ricocheting slugs flying about !

Moral tactics: A tough call ! You must apply the concept of triage ! Possibly her life v. yours and the ruin of you family ..the horror to your wife and kids , their future , their sorrow …their peace of mind gone forever , the doubts about your actions , right or wrong …the public backlash ..the media hounds…the wife of the decedent and her children blaming you , choosing to believe you overreacted …post traumatic disorder..impotence etc.

Financial tactics: The widow thanks you one moment ; the next files a civil suit at the prodding of the ambulance chasers who will descend upon her like vultures making a case for deep pockets [ yours] ….question of coverage under your liability policies …liens put on property you own …defense costs possibly to be borne by yourself only …investigation expenses..discovery motions..depositions… …experts …expensive trial two or three years down the road …$.150,000.00 in defense cost ..plus possible damages awards to the surviving wife and kids which can run into six figures !

Criminal action: You may well be charged criminally by the police regardless of your dreams to the contrary and what you told them in you brain quivering state after the shooting will be used to prosecute you ! It might well be a major criminal trial which could cost you between $75,000.00 and $100,000.00 for the defense ! Your nice defense attorney , friend of the family , will want to be paid in advance for most of his work ! The friends of the man you shot will swear revenge , his own kids will threaten to get even as they grow up ! You might go to jail !

In some states good Samaritan laws may provide some relief but you will still go through an unbelievable nightmare !

Experts in lethal force discourage such intervention unless the person in jeopardy is a relative or close friend !



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Van Canna


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 1999 4:12 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2431
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
In the last analysis, having some idea of what probable legal repercussions might be, I suppose such choices are made in an instant hopefully based on which alternative is the least attractive to each man.

The death or injury the person whom you are considering "protecting" vs.the death or injury of the "assailant" and concomitant legal (civil and criminal) ramifications.

The "state" (I am deliberately being cloudy here, because this may vary from state to state and nation to nation) appears be heading in the direction of discouragement of the making of the the second alternative choice.

The "retreat" doctrine research I undertook has not gotten beyond the One case (which occasioned negating legisltaion in the 70's)
where the person shooting an intruder in her home was held liable and "obliged to "retreat" if possible. In this instance, however, the defending person was "aware" of the identity of the assailant (her ex husband) at the time of the shooting. I cannot remeber at home (the case sits on my desk at work) whether this was a Civil or Criminal proceeding and will clarify.

I will research this a bit more as well as any "good samaritan" laws as may apply in the Commonwealth.

JOHN


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 1999 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
Does Sensei Mattson or Sensei Van Canna's legal analysis trouble anyone?
If you as the shooter said or looked like you meant anything which remotely could be misconstrued, then, AHA! Gotch ya! We'll suuuuue you. (Of course if you have anything worth suing for.) Or if this gets enough media exposure and I as the prosecutor can get some PC (politically correct) hay then I'll criminally go after you.
Realistically this is not someone spitting on the sidewalk and the situation demands analysis. This is not the Wild West, some neighborhoods maybe?

Two quick suggestions:
1. Don't own anything, control it! Any Asset Protection attorney can help you with this. Don't become a target with exposed assets. Van seems to advocate insurance. I like trusts, limited partnerships and LLC's.

2. The MCLE (Massachusetts Continuing Legal Education) hosts a Basic Practice Seminar in January/February. As a civilian (non bar member or non attorney) you will not F***** believe this. The cost is about $300 for 3 days. If you can't afford this, you don't need it.
It consists of 3 days of intense pracical law for law school graduates who have passed the bar (bar exam - intense 2 day state exam to qualify attorneys to be able to practice law). Incidentally it is against the law to pracice Law without a license. You can still, maybe not, represent yourself, if you are foolish enough to want to.

The course is broken down to the approximate 12 areas of Law and taught by the top attorney in that field with accompanying books and notes. You are able to ask questions, call them later for follow up and rub shoulders with 300 new and updating hot attorneys. I go every other year and try to stay abreast of legal mine fields, meet those top attorneys and often am able to get them to speak at my monthly Real Estate meetings. If you think these criminal situations are legal nightmares, get some Real Estate.
In Real Estate we have a saying "If you don't get the education up front, someone else is going to take you to school and it will be much more expensive!"
I think every man woman and child in America today should either take that MCLE (I think every state has a legal continuing education center) Basic Practice Course or become a paralegal. It's like learning to breathe in Sanchin.

Back to the situation. Most Lawyers I know will tell you "It's knowing what not to say that's important!"

Holy waukee, Andy! Did I write all that? A little too long, that otta kill the thread. Obviously that was one of my hot buttons.

http://www.massrealestate.net


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 1999 12:49 pm 
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Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
http://www.mcle.org
or call
(617) 482-2205


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 1999 12:52 pm 
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Mike,

Good post !

How about an education on how to "own nothing" ??

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Van Canna


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 1999 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 6021
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Veeery Interesting Mike!

I find it disturbing that in order to survive in this world of hungry lawyers, one must hire one to outwit the others. . .

And all of this effort focused on simply trying to live a normal/average, law abiding life!

Perhaps like self defense, where we must look at the "realism" issues, we should examine other aspects of our lives with the same education and understanding.

Mike. . . how would you like to moderate a Forum on "Living Smart!" or whatever?

I have many questions on the subject that may promote a better understanding of the whole subject. You and I have discussed these issues in the past and I've implemented many of your suggestions. Unfortunately, before you told me of these pitfalls, I didn't know enough about the subject to ask questions.

What do you think???

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GEM


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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 1999 3:08 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2431
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
To All:

Good Post.

My house is in trust irrevocable by me.

My personal possesions of any worth are corporately owned. (you can have my ten year old TV.

My Cars have no equity.

The course will still teach me something.

Atty. J. Thurston

Good Post Mike.

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 Post subject: Murder - Suicide Dilemma
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 1999 3:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Location: Richmond, VA
To all: Thanks for the responses. The answer is in there: Defend only those loved ones that are worth the risk of losing everything you have as a result.

I find that hard to accept but will commit it to memory.

Regards, Rich


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