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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 12:47 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
For what it's worth. . .

Having a conversation with an old (cop) buddy of mine recently. The subject of guns for personal self defense arose.

He told me that a recent stat identified that hand guns in the home are TWENTY TWO times more likely to be used on a friend or family member than on a stranger in self defense.

No interpretation on this and, no, I cannot quote the source (nor could he -- said the information had come his way through some government study).

Be gentle. . .

Gary

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Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 2:21 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Gary: This appears to be from a study done by A. L. Kellermann, et al, 'Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home', NEJM,10/07/93.

The study consists of of case studies of 444 homicides that occurred in the victim's home in three counties. What is not reported is that in only 8 of these 444 homicides could it be established that the 'gun involved had been kept in the home'. John Lott Jr.)

Also there is the question of what a 'friend or family member' is defined as. Many gunshot victims do indeed know their assailent - they are fellow gang bangers and rivals.

JD and Bill G. would have a field day with his study and its lack of control data, size of the sample, location of the sample group, no accounting for the effect of socioeconomic factors....

Just the facts.

Rich


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 3:25 am 
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Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Thanks Rich!

I have a lot of respect for you because (unlike me) you are well read on these subjects and take the time to understand the meaning behind the numbers.

As I mentioned in my original post, I did not see the study, know its origin or understand any of the peripheral issues surrounding the data.

Reminds me of something Mark Twain once said. . .

G


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 4:20 am 
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To a certain extent those stats are revealing ! But it is not the guns , it is the people __some people with guns are total ineffective ,unsafe , dangerous morons ! Then you add liquor to the equation and you have a serious problem !

If you took all guns away there still would be crimes of passion , killings in outbursts of anger or uncontrollable emotion with whatever weapon is at hand ! So which way do we prefer to die , by the gun , knife , club , hammer , machete , etc. !

Real suicide cases are not and were never deterred by lack of guns to kill themselves ! I investigated one case where a mentally unstable person waited at a street corner until a garbage truck rolled by , and he flung himself headlong under one of the wheels splattering his brains all over the road for all to see !

Lots of these "friendly fire" killings are perpetrated by individuals in predictable patterns that law enforcement and the judicial system have failed or are unable to control !

Then there is this : between 1978 and 1983___ 396 people were killed by guns in private residences ! Children playing with loaded guns , husband and wives killed in marital disputes , others were suicides !

Contrast : in one year alone , 1980 , 2819 criminals were killed by citizens in personal defense !

Violent criminals fear armed citizens killing them more than any cop or law on the books ! And they take notice , and the anti-gunner benefits from a lower crime rate because of this fear by the criminal !




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Van Canna


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 1:49 pm 
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Van wrote..Contrast : in one year alone , 1980 , 2819 criminals were killed by citizens in personal defense !

What're the latest statistics about citizen defense? If this number is still high, why aren't there any articles in the news about them? I read many many stories about domestic and accidental gun shootings but almost none about defensive shootings.

Example, two noteworthy stories from the NE region, one a gas/convenience store owner in RI whacked two punks who habitually burgled his store. Give that man a cigar. Two, a homeowner blasted an alledged Asian home invader on Halloween night three years ago or so. WHOOPS! The kid was in fact drunk and lost and knocked on the wrong door. Obviously a case of a gun being in the wrong hands as unfortunately happens too often.

Where are the stories of defense? Other states? Poor PR by the NRA? The liberal press ignores them?

With all respect to responsible gun owners,

Kevin


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 2:27 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA
The vast majority of successful defenses by a potential victim using a gun go unreported by the defender. Even brandishing a firearm to scare away a mugger is frowned upon in many cities and states, with the victim ending up in court!.

The NRA does publish stories of successful use of firearms by honest citizens each month in the 'Guardian', one of their publications. Why they do not use this as PR I do not know. The mostly liberal press either ignores them or relegates the story to the bottom of an inside page.

It is interesting to note, that no one has ever criticized or 'slammed' me for my position as a pro-defense/pro-gun person. Quite the opposite, many have asked me how to go about acquiring permits, training, weapons ..... In fact, I went down this path in just the last year because so many beginning students at the gym asked me about it. I went through the permit procedure primarily as a learning experience. As a result, I added projectile weapons to my MA training.

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 07-16-99).]


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 3:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
What is a projectile weapon?


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 10:38 pm 
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Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Mike: It is a euphemism for a gun. It could also be a bow and arrow or something you throw. Perhaps I was a bit too obtuse. I've been reading way too many of JD's posts...

Gary: Thank you for the reply. Keep in mind that I train under Bill (PhD./research scientist) Glasheen sensei and must alway be prepared to support any statement that I make with facts. In fact, I recently out-researched him on a piece of common Uechi dojo Japanese and he acknowledged it and conceded to me recently. As sound a researcher as he is, I am more of a detailer.

(BTW, this was as a result of trying to find out what our Uechi lingo really means. Some interesting 'jinglish' is being perpetuated. Are you going to put together that 'official' dojo Japanese book/tape that you mentioned to me at camp last year? Hint, hint.)

As for data, I have a significant ability to absorb and remember vast amounts of info. (Unfortunately, I lack the raw athleticism to put much of what I learn to work.) In the area of handgun stats I did a lot of homework before I went out and purchased a 'piece'. This is wise as the local/state/federal maze of regulations is very confusing. For instance, a Virginian wandering into NJ with a gun in his car is really going to be in trouble if stopped on the highway by a trooper for any reason. NJ is a 'control' state.

Anyway, with all of the rhetoric, political and otherwise I dealved into the stats to try to understand what the story really is. As it turns out, both sides of the gun issue are guilty of spinning stats in their favor. However, the anti-gun lobby is by far the major 'truth bender'.

Just this week, Bill Clinton made a speech and stated (paraphrased) that every day, thirteen school children lose their lives to handgun violence. Wow? Thirteen Columbine massacurs each and every day. I wonder why we do not hear about this on TV?

The truth is in the stats. School children for the sake of this study includes anyone of school age, up to 18, who may or may not be in school. As an example, last week in Richmond a seventeen year old male was found shot in the back of the head (execution style) in the wee hours of the morning in a known drug trading area. The article noted that he is a former student of 'xxxxxx' highschool.

What we have here is a highschool dropout killed in a drug deal gone bad. He counts as one of the murdered school children the way the stats are counted. School age? Yes. Student. No. Child, hardley. And yes, I believe that every day, on average, thirteen of these gang bangers are murdered across the US, but that is not the impression Clinton and company are giving.

Vice Perpetrator alGore made a major gaffe last month that even left leaning Tom Brokaw of NBC had to criticize. alGore stated that (paraphrased) any 18 year old can go into a gun shop and legally buy the kinds of handguns used in the Columbine incident, and that new laws need to be passed to prevent that from occuring. Brokaw pointed out that alGore needs to know the laws better himself, as that is already illeagal.

The NRA of course publishes their own stats and rebuttels. If you really want to get the straight story, refer to 'More Guns, Less Crime' by John Lott. He really cuts the crap. The anti gun crusaders shudder when his name is mentioned. They have tried to discredit him without supporting research. One well known anti gun zeolot criticized and critiqued the study before it was actually published, and was called onto the carpet for it.

Regards, Rich


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 1999 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
I do not take a position to be anti-gun for i am not. With all due respect to RA Castanet and Van Canna whom are unquestionably more knowledgeable than i on the issue, i tend to believe that the accessabilty to a legal gun by family and friends may present shooting incidents to be more likely to happen at moments of rage? Certainly i agree with Van that it is "people" who kill not the guns. A knife or a club or even an automobile can be the means.

I have had guns in my hands before and it seems as though the "easiest" means to kill someone would be by pulling the trigger. Would you agree? How often have we heard "If i only had a gun" at a moment of anger. People today are on the edge and i think that the general public are scared ****. Many of you are respectable gun owners but it is the other percentage of people that cause so much attention to the issue.

Why do we not here more about people defending themselves with guns? Ever see "Death Wish" with Charles Bronson? Society cannot promote the approvel of shooting people for self defence where as it may set of a "Vigilante" mindset in some. Even though the "stats" may drop to an all time low.

Just as there are those who think that we who study any form of martial arts are violent people looking to hurt others, there are those whom believe that anyone with a gun is wanting to shoot someone. Unfortunately, i have heard guys at work "brag" about there guns they have "at home" and how if anyone messed with them etc. etc. How unfortunate, for these are the ones that have people feeling the way they do.


The whole gun debate is controversial in itself. Surely there are many veiws on it depending upon your own personal experiences or lack of them. With an open mind i see how both gun advocates and anti-gun groups have there arguments.


With respect to all,



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Gary S.


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 1999 1:27 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2438
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
To all:

For what's it's worth, every personal sale of a firearm now has to be cleared through NCIC "instant" background check.

Massachusetts was exempt from parts of Brady I but not from parts of Brady II.

Some Legislators in this state are (a little)concerned that if the laws are made much more rigid, that the firearms market will go entirely underground. Now another fact is that there are 120-150 million firearms out there in the U.S.-so Pandora's box is already open.

The press generally will not, as Rich says, publish self defense incidents.

However, Newsweek did have the good grace to report on the recent study "More Guns, Less Crime" which I believe Rich has read, and I have not. He, therefore should be the one to comment on this "counter study".

The most incident that hit the press around here involved an "akita" dog in Plymouth that got loose and started to chaw on the neighbors. Now, I like dogs, but----?

I don't know what caused the animal to "turn".

The Police came an whacked it a few times with 9 mm stuff--no go.

Finally a neighbor took exception to the proceedings and used his 12 gauge to end same.

No charges were brought against him, but they were considered for "discharging a firearm within 300 feet of a dwelling" and/or within other restricted areas.

What can one say? Gimme a break????

American Rifleman puts a section "The Armed Citizen" with a dozen or so self defense reports in each issue, but they're preaching to the choir.

If it takes having a firearm sometimes to be prepared, so be it. I don't like reality much either, but don't let the state be the one doing the deciding for you-within reason.

I received a with last week's report that Americans are willing to give up some of their "rights" in exchange for "more safety."

OK.

The Romans used to, if I am informed correctly, like to have the option to "fall on their sword".


Seppuku seemed to reserve the same option.

I am not in favor of "suicide" but---the choice of weapons for those who have reached the end of their tether may be cultural, and a matter on convenience, not a "cause".

All enlightenment freely accepted.
J.


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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 07-17-99).]


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 1999 3:21 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Hi Gary S. Thanks for the reply. Yes, the availability of a handgun during a heated moment does account for a number of murders and suicides. However, the statistics do not bear out any huge growth in that area. And yes, every year hundreds of unattended children find a loaded gun and shoot themselves or a playmate. By one account, there are some 240 million guns owned by Americans. It takes only one careless person per million guns to account for the majority of these unfortunate incidents. However, firearms accidents injure fewer children than bicycles, skateboards, trampolines, household chemicals.....

Personally, I have never, not even at my angriest, considered going for a gun. It just does not happen to me, or most people for that matter. In Virginia for instance, not one legally permitted resident has ever been convicted of a handgun crime. What stats show is a very small subculture of the US population is causing virtually all of the mayhem. And that small group will always be there, rules and regulations or not.

Personally, I do not think the general public is scared ********. In the Richmond area, a poll just this week showed health care and education concerns as high on the list as crime. Yes, a third of the respondants did list crime as their #1 concern, but gun control did not even show up! Actually, Richmonders are still too busy fighting the civil war to worry about much else, but that is a different story.

Anyway, for those that are interested, I'll bring my copy of Lott's study to camp along with a few copies of the 'Guardian' magazine and its articles on how civilian ownership of guns have saved lives.

Oh, I must relate one true handgun story recently listed. An elderly gentleman was constantly being harassed by juvenile toughs. One day they went to far and he brandished an old handgun to scare them off. A concerned neighbor reported this to the police,....... who came and confiscated his gun. The next day he was found dead, murdered by that gang of young punks. Hmmmm...........

Rich


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 1999 4:17 am 
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Posts: 2438
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Rich San et al:

Regarding stats,not 15 seconds ago A&E flashed on their screen that out of "200 Million weapons on the streets of America, there were only 178 "justifiable homicides"

Playing with numbers and our minds?

Followed by "Professor" Miller deriding "gun toting vigilantes" directing all of us to "not take the law in our own hands" and to put all defensive measures involving lethal force "into the hands of the proper authorities".


J

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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 1999 5:31 am 
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" Professor " Miller would be the first one to beg you to use your handgun to save his wife or daughter from being brutally sodomized while he was made to watch with the promise of being "next" !

Also our good " professor" either doesn't know or won't tell the public that in 1981 a Federal appeals court in Washington D. C. , held that police have a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community! And that police have no duty to provide "protection" to any particular citizen!

This rule regurgitated forth from the failure of the police to respond to a 911 call by three women who were eventually abducted at knifepoint and repeatedly raped and seriously beaten for fourteen hours!

Oh please !! Mr. Miller is representative of the cowardly delusional population at large in our American society in deep denial!!


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 1999 2:27 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Van Sensei:

This was meant to be an example of the antigun "propaganda" that comes across MY door alone in ONE WEEK .

People who don't have firearms or any interest in them are getting the same material.

You know how I feel.

Any interpretations of the stat mentioned, seemed as though it had been seriously played with or just an outright lie.

(ie: re: 178 "justifiable homicides")


J.


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 Post subject: A Stat
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 1999 7:27 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Rich San:

At this point I am taking the stat actually shown on screen by A&E as an outright lie or distortion.

Thank you for presenting the opposing interpretations so well.


The media, et al, also is trying very hard to impose "guilt" by association on "REsponsible Gun Owners" (who they do not acknowledge exist, in effect).

The problem with the present "course" of interpretation of the law and of media coverage re: self defense, is in the direction of discouraging people from defending themselves, but keeping the "State" insulated from liability when it fails to protect the individual.


JOHN


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