Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:11 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 1999 3:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30549
Hi Rick ,

You wrote "But in the end it is the principle they must
find. They must find what works best for them and stick to it. And
what they find will be simple. But each must chose a response that
suites them, at this time, and concentrate on it. (The only thing I
stress must be the same for everyone is mindset.)"

I believe you have the answer as individuals differ in assimilation and implementation of given techniques ! " Different strokes for different folks " as the saying goes !

But we walk a fine line and most of us are seduced naturally by anything "new" we are exposed to ! This can be very insidious …

Siddle's studies revealed that the grip of fight or flight can be very dramatic in proportion to the level of the threat !

Most martial artists have not been up against a major high threat level , they only think they did , and they have a tendency to believe that , having handled the " minors" they are fully ready for the "majors" just because his sensei says so ! { one example is Clarence facing up to and charging a gun wielding punk about to shoot him …that is as major as it can get …and debriefing Clarence as to his response action is fascinating }

When the body hands you the "cocktail" , blood flow shifts from lower extremities to the major muscle groups , creating a vascular occlusion with hand dexterity , coordination and fine complex motor skills going bye -bye !

Reaction time is greatly increased along with response time ! This has been proven to be such a serious problem that knowledgeable lethal force trainers are so strict on the simple economy of the simplest movements that they bark your head off if they catch you out of "synch" but for an instant ! They want nothing but a few instinctive reactions to imbed into your system !

You asked about Hypervigilance in a previous thread ! This is such a corrupting , disrupting mental state occurring under a perceived high level threat , that is truly bewilderingly incapacitating and stuns the defender into inaction in spite of his beliefs in traditional " martial arts concepts" !

It manifests itself in all its glory when serious injury or death is imminent and the time to react is very short and temporary brain lock takes place by the churning of underlying response actions struggling to emerge in the confused state !

Split seconds count as never before and "smart training " is designed to enhance reaction and response time by planting a quick triggering mechanism in the training process by the expedient of the selection of natural body mechanics foreseen under extreme stress !

This is such a critical component of our practice , yet not readily understood , in fact denied by most brainwashed traditionalists who obdurately refuse to cross the threshold into modern concepts !

Very serious business here , but most of us will continue in denial until "the day of the triffids" !

Peace




------------------
Van Canna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 1999 6:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
David:
I can sympathize with your situation. I have spent the last four years studying Aikido with Lou Perriello Sensei in Chelmsford, MA, and had my similar share of frustrating experiences. Myself, and a small group of fellows who felt similarly, did find at least one solution, which lasted for at least a short time. Perhaps it might work for you as well?
We established a "grappling" class, the original theoretical purpose of which was to integrate some techniques from BJJ into our practice. As the class when on, we gradually began to expand our arsenal, including punches, kicks, sucker punch drills, ect...
Unfortunately the class died when a number of the students quit the dojo, frustrated by the harassment they recieved from some of the other dojo members. I was very sorry to watch them go.
You said you had a small cadre of friends who think like you do. Perhaps you might want to see if you can establish a similar class...just a thought.
Whatever your decision is, good luck, and know that there are at least one or two other aikidoka out there who feel your pain...probably a lot more.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 1999 11:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Hi Jake,

The small morning cadre, indeed, "pushed the envelop", with me prompting alot of it, including doing non traditional attacks, kicks, more multidirectional Filipino types of weapons attacks which confused those used to the "orthodox" tanto/club/jo attacks of the standard curriculum. The free practice was the medium. Perhaps, we pushed too much. We are shut down.

Several instructors I highly respected who were practicing other arts, including BJJ, have moved on. Reasons never explicitly given, though one I talked to I can infer from his demeanor and circumspect answers. It's also revealing in his last class he had us pick up tantos and attacked each other fast and wildly. Most of us were "hurt" to say the least. His closing statement to his closing class, with a grin: "Not as easy as you might have thought, eh...?." These instructors had way more time in that dojo and went on their way.

The prevailing culture and oligarchy are very entrenched. They are protected or have protected themselves behind the formality. Some, NOT all, claim and act as if they are EXPERTS in self defense but will not submit themselves to a true "freestyle" situation to give a hint of what they really got. The traditional structure has protected them and insulated them in their delusions. They have cultivated their own little groups of deluded students. I've also seen some students abused by one these same instructors. It never happened to me. Fortunate for them because I have a "street side" of me that would not tolerate that. I would have quickly disabused them of their little delusions. It would have been worth it to get thrown out of the dojo for that.

If you have been around Sensei Periello for four years, you may know our dojo and some of those in the echelon since I believe Sensei Periello's split didn't occur til several years ago. We used to see students from his dojo.

Jake welcome. I am sometimes surprised by who comes on this site. I read your article way back in ATM. Good training to you and please continue to contribute to this site. It's really an "open" cyberdojo, dispite some of the heat that is occaisonally generated..

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited 07-17-99).]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 1999 1:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
J.D,

It's scary but your post capture much of my thinking Image, and I have been thinking alot.

Thanks for the post.

david


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 1999 3:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
David,
Thanks for the welcome, though I do need to clear up one point. I've never written an article for ATM or any other magazine...though I've considered it once or twice in some of my more delusional moments. As the cliche goes "I'm afraid you have me confused with someone else".
Sadly, I must agree with the good doctor...to many arts, Aikido included, are filled with the Lotus Eater types who refuse to subject themselves to real stresses. Even now, I find myself frustrated in my attempts to get members of my Kung Fu school to push the envelope. But rest assured, for every 10 Lotus Eaters that an art contains, it also contains one or two people like us. Even Aikido. Seek them out...or look somewhere else. You'll find what you're looking for.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 1999 9:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Jake,

Sorry. Confused you with another student/writer from Sensei Periello's dojo.

You are right about the "one or two" in every dojo/style. Keep it up. Also, keep in mind Van sensei's points.

Irimi and atemi reflect a more aggressive state of mind that is needed in a real encounter. Practice well.

david


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 1999 1:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
I think that when people were talking about "Mushin" or the Calm, "Be Relaxed" or whatever you want to call it, they were talking about a BLEND of being Aggressive, yet not OUT OF FOCUS.

It's hard for me to explain, but I know that in those moments where I have done well in fights or confrontations, and when I avoided being crippled by a Jeep, I WAS RELAXED, yet it was not in a passive, blase' sense, it was sort of an active, super-accelerated, yet seeming slow, type of deal.

If there is a Mushin, it would be the ability to handle with some sense of judgement, your fear and rage, yet drawing on them to propel you forward.

I don't think this can really be taught. I know I personally have gone from shaking the first time I even HELD a gun to fire it to now being able to NOT rip a guy's head off, yet not standing there and saying "Buddha bless you" like the dude in "Killer Priest". My personal best feat, besides avoiding the Jeep in a kima shuffle stance that then switched to a boxing stance, was the time I did a jump flying 360 degree spin kick in a fit of rage and knocked a thick branch off of a tree after arguing with an ex. I didn't even think about it, I have tried to do it later and I still can't, but I know that I scared the crap out of a dude who was watching me! And out of myself.

You can call me in denial, that is fine. I know there is a certain calmness within the storm, but I don't think it can be achieved by wearing beads and holding hands or by constantly banging on other people. I don't know if it's inborn, or just luck. Frankly, I wish I could pull it off at WILL, but I'm glad it's been there to save me when I really needed it. Perhaps meditation is the way to go, but face it, how many instructors and us assistant instructors (alas I have joined the ranks of people passing on the b.s., I must tow the line and drill kicks instead of really talking to the kids as well, since I am NOT the one in charge) KNOW about mindset, or really sit down and talk to the students. When was the last time you heard someone in a class talk about being afraid, or being angry, or telling people they might choke, and that it is okay to feel those things. The only child I tell that stuff to is my son!

I think Van's warnings and advice could be passed on if WE stopped fussing over how many forms we have to learn and teach and ALSO tell people what it feels like when you've been kicking and kicking this dude and he won't go down, or the blackeye that would have made you stop sparring in class, suddenly is not even felt in a confrontation. How about telling them that the one kick or punch that they haven't done in YEARS may be the move to save them while their favored techniques may only be used as a setup, if at all. When was the last time you pulled aside a junior student who had more street fighting experience than you do and asked him about his stories so that you could learn from him as well? When was the last time you heard an upper degree black belt admit they have never been in a real fight?

Nobody ever tries to figure out what makes some people be able to hold technique under stress and other people fall apart. Nobody ever talks about how is it that 2nd gups may still be fighting like a fifth grader on the playground, yet a 4th gup on again off again student may be able to go toe to toe with a black belt in a full contact match.

I'll stop ranting now,

Cecil

------------------
Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 1999 1:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
"Other questions we were discussing with Mattson sensei at the Halifax camp : if the chances of getting involved in a real fight are so infinitesimal in life for most people , then why is it that most martial artists have had at least one or two , with others claiming lots more ?? And why is it that most martial artists are in constant denial as to why they took up karate ? You know ..for exercise ; my health ; for sport; for the art ; self discipline ; to become a better person ; to be better coordinated etc. "

You know that people will try to make you feel guilty about wanting to take karate so that you can learn how to fight. That's why I took it up as a kid. Now, I have people looking at me like I'm crazy because I came back to it for health as well as learning how to fight. I actually felt guilty because I started looking at health being more important than me learning another technique.

It seems like other people have more problems with my training than I do.

------------------
Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 1999 3:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 19, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 55
Location: Portsmouth,NH,US
You guys are light years beyond my level of understanding, but I'll offer my appreciation for your thoughts.

Cecil, your points hit home. I personally pay lots of attention to the "gup" who spoils for sparring. Sometimes they bellow and curse when someone causes them pain (the greatest pain being a deflated ego.) Other times they seem to use the cocktail, Molotov fashion, to surprise us all with relentless drive, moving from erect fighting through takedown into vigorous grappling with very experienced opponents.

How to teach or learn more of THAT?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 1999 4:22 am 
Cecil,

There are some who start karate for junky reasons (like me) other than learning how to fight. I did it because I was bored with my lot in life at the time and wanted more excitement. I put down my money then Jeannie (Mrs. DeCosta Sensei) invited me to watch a class. I said "No. I don't even understand what's going on. I'll be back next week."

I didn't even watch a class and planned on working out only until I got myself out of the doldrums. But then I found out about all these new neat ways to cream someone that I never thought-up myself, and I got latched-in real hard for the long journey.

So for a number of years, it was for the crunch. I loved it.

One day I was run over by a truck and paralyzed from the waist down. Karate then became my instrument of healing the mind, the body, and the spirit.

There are valid reasons to do it other than for fighting, Cecil, so don't feel guilty; you're getting what you want and need else you just up and quit. BUT, fighting HAS to be in there somewhere else you can spell karate as 'f-a-c-a-d-e.'

------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 07-21-99).]


Top
  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 1999 5:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 203
Location: Florida
I was talking with a friend who played offensive line for a major college. I asked him what he missed most . He didn't hesitate - the hitting-the crunching. I mentioned something along the same lines about sparring, grappling and why I love karate, that I could relate to his missing the contact.

Know one thing and know ten thousand things.


JohnC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 1999 5:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 6
Location: worcester,Ma.
Hello all;

If mr. Canna had not of said the name Toyoda sensei i would not have piped up. I trained with Toyoda sensei for many years before i found uechi. I was usually the demo dummy for him and let me tell you when you get thrown to the ground your whole body feels like it was punched. However this does not make aikido effective. Most aikido-ka work with their partner to make the technique work. If there is no partnership there is no aikido. most u.s. teachers have been influenced by Koichi Tohei who belived that aiki is not for street defence but for somthing much nobeler and that street defence was barbaric and below him. I belive that poeple who stay with aikido and similar arts are afraid to get hurt and unwilling to face reality. The partnership style moves keep them from getting hurt and the teachers provide an attmosphere that keeps the student wraped up in a security blanket. the ones who want realistic training (like myself) end up moving on.



------------------


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 1999 3:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30549
POINTS TO PONDER

1] “, But I know that in those moments where I have done well in fights or confrontations, and when I avoided being crippled by a Jeep, I WAS RELAXED, yet it was not in a passive, blasé' sense, it was sort of an active, super-accelerated, yet seeming slow, type of deal. If there is a Mushin, it would be the ability to handle with some sense of judgment, your fear and rage, yet drawing on them to propel you forward. ” [Cecil]
Comments: Good point! Professor Steiner writes that one of the ways to develop the “mind set” is to first accept the fact we live in a violent world and random acts of extreme violence are the rule and not the exception! Then cultivate a ”relaxed ready stance” always in anticipation for the worst so that you will be rarely surprised by irrational, unprovoked violence that flares up unexpectedly!
Steiner goes on to say, and I fully agree, that this “determined attitude” if effectively programmed, will subliminally discourage potential “attackers” as they, like animals, sense when they can expect a “fight back” and move on to the next victim!
We have discussed the need of bringing forth indignant explosive rage, but it must be in a controlled state of anger or we would loose control and make major errors, right?
So we are saying we must remain cool under extreme stress, even of the deadly assault variety, right?
No doubt there are some of us, trained or not in the Arts, who have this inborn ability! Professor Steiner believes that it is possible to remain in this cool-headed controlled fury stage if we “determine to do so; if we will ourselves to do so by mental exercises” __ He also recommends the use of Hypnotic sessions to achieve this!
My belief is that this is mostly a genetic gift ….. But the above is certainly something to consider {Dr. Michael Knight may have some insight here}!

“When was the last time you pulled aside a junior student who had more street fighting experience than you do and asked him about his stories so that you could learn from him as well? When was the last time you heard an upper degree black belt admit they have never been in a real fight? Nobody ever tries to figure out what makes some people be able to hold technique under stress and other people fall apart. Nobody ever talks about how is it that 2nd gups may still be fighting like a fifth grader on the playground, yet a 4th gup on again off again student may be able to go toe to toe with a black belt in a full contact match. “ {Cecil}
“I personally pay lots of attention to the "gup" who spoils for sparring. Sometimes they bellow and curse when someone causes them pain (the greatest pain being a deflated ego.) Other times they seem to use the cocktail, Molotov fashion, to surprise us all with relentless drive, moving from erect fighting through takedown into vigorous grappling with very experienced opponents. How to teach or learn more of THAT? “{Dr. Knight}


Comments: again, the truth is that most martial artists are delusional denialists deeply entrenched in their cocoon of “invincibility” with the large majority believing they are a privileged group, they themselves alone possessing the “ancient secrets of the masters”! So they would lose face by following Cecil’s suggestions! It’s like when I tell some of the really “conditioned “ practitioners who believe nothing can hurt them, to just go to a football practice session and then come back and tell me how tough they really are! Or when I suggest to some of the “tremendously powerful” internal artists to go enter an arm wrestling contest!
As to the disparity in skills as pointed out by Cecil And Michael, I believe that it is largely a function of genetics! Hard to accept, but true! But some success can be achieved in improving mind and body performance by very intensive workouts to generate stress and “condition” the subconscious!

What Steve Pie writes about Aikido is disturbing, but true! But then again we have the same problem in Karate, including Uechi >>> ever see some of the classes run by certain dojos?

BTW welcome to the forum Steve; don’t be a stranger!







------------------
Van Canna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 1999 3:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
I forget where I first heard this from, but the truth of it cannnot be denied.

"Martial Arts don't win fights, People do."

Tony Blauer makes the point that there are far more people out there with no martial arts training who successfully defend themselves every day than there are martial artists who ever have to, or successfully use their art.

Aikido, Karate, Kung Fu, or whatever it is you call it...they can all be equally effective, or equally delusional. If you truly practice for combat, you will have to come to the same conclusions, no matter what banner you fly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DEAD SIMPLE
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 1999 10:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Jake,

>>Aikido, Karate, Kung Fu, or whatever it is you call it...they can all be equally effective, or equally delusional. If you truly practice for combat, you will have to come to the same conclusions, no matter what banner you fly.<<

I agree 100%. If one practices for "jutsu" in lieu of or in addition to "do", then it's incumbent on the practitioner to critically evaluate the nature of his/her practice. "Do" practice as often seen in many dojo discourages this.

david


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group