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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 1999 8:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Interview with Krav Maga speaker at the last NAPMA conference (the one Gary attended).

http://www.mapromag.com/interviews_text.asp?page=2&number=2

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 07-14-99).]


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 1999 3:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Tray:

It's just a gut feeling (I've been wrong PLENTY of times before!), but I think programs like Krav Maga and others are going to be the wave of the future.

Krav Maga focuses on fitness and pure self defense. They don't care about kata, technique or how black your black belt is. All they are concerned about is what you can use and what works. Period. (Oh yeah, don't forget making money!)

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE traditional karate. So doesn't approximately 1 other percent of the population according to statistics. Yup, just one damn percent.

But self defense? BIG jump here! And fitness? ANOTHER big jump here, too! Let's face it people are busy. Hell, if I was just starting out, I don't even think I would have time to take karate these days and I eat, drink and sleep this stuff!

Long and short of it is, people are strapped for time, want stripped down versions of everything and don't seem to mind paying for the "4 week superstar intensive know everything in no time" course.

Will I continue to do traditional Uechi-ryu at my school? Hey, I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I didn't do Sanchin everyday!

But a new day is dawning. Don't anyone be shocked if my school is the first one to license the Krav Maga program out East.

You heard it here first.

G

------------------
Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 1999 11:47 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
Didn't Bruce Lee adopt Jeet Kwan Do (a system which took individual techniques, from every style, which worked for him) later in his career after a traditional Gung Fu: exercise, form, sparring background?
With the proliferation of Tae Bo, at every YMCA and store front Martial Arts club, it would be good to get on the next wave early.


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 1999 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Gary give me a call at the office or at the dojo. We've been 'doing' a program much like the krav maga program for about 3 years or so (just not formalized). I contacted the krav guys about 6 months ago. I also believe this is the future *type* of MA training. Guess what? Uechi has it all also, it is just a presentation style flex and marketing (steve white??) call me I have a few ideas we should discuss....


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 1999 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
good post,

thnxs. I feel that the pendulum is swinging towards more 'real' oriented training vs. the storefront training that has been current. The next phase of marketing will be *reality* or *street* oriented. Like they say, by the time you see the bandwagon it is to late to jump on. Our dojo, like yours, teaches these things already, we just limit to whom we teach and how they are exposed to more violent type of training (i.e impact suit training). One problem that I have with what I have read about Krav (never having seen it performed mind you) is that they perform weapon defense against knives guns etc from day one. OK, nice concept but one needs to be able to move in order to perform even the most basic of technique. This confuses me slightly.

Looking forward to meeting you at the camp

later
tracy


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 1:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Raff/Tray:

Good hearing your views on this.

Raff: I hear you loud and clear on your points regarding the presentation or marketing of this particular package. Like you said, maybe these guys will be the ones to make what you guys have been doing for years famous!

Likewise, I know people who have been doing "Karobics" for 4-5 years now. It took B.B. and his infomercial to put the program on the map, though.

Again, this is just a FEELING for me. I, like Tracy, feel that people are becoming a bit more concerned and want to know more -- in a shorter amount of time! -- about personal safety. Krav Maga might be the answer.

Tray: I, too, know nothing about Krav Maga methods and/or curriculum, but in the seminars I saw, it was my understanding that they do work basic punches, etc. first.

Their belief is that most people who get stabbed think that they're being punched (i.e. they DON'T KNOW that they're in a knife fight until their bleeding or dying!). As such, there is no sense or purpose in discriminating between the two (for them).

All will be answered in time. Will we be the ones asking, telling or wondering what happened?

Gary

------------------
Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 5:02 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 635
Location: Johnston, RI
Hello Gary and Tracey Sensei,
I too have read considerable info about Krav Maga. Mostly via the internet and the NAPMA monthly magazine. Give careful consideration before you consider this. The art of Krav Maga is fine indeed. I am a fully certified Jeet Kune Do instructor and from what I have read, I see little difference between the two with regard to concepts and the actual art. They talk about not doing kata, gee neither do we. They don't wear gi's, and they wear sneakers when they train and spar. Well, that is my JKD class exactly. We spend half of our time sparring and yes we wear sneakers, and no, we don't have many injuries. The other half of our method is combat related training. Hmmm...could KravMaga sucess be a great marketing method?? Am I jealous...hell yeah!
But, the biggest point I wanted to make about this is that schools that focus on these things don't always have 300 students in that program. The Krav Maga school on the west coast seems to boast 1000 students. The west coast has always been more progressive. However, a lot of people, not all, don't want to deal in the realities of self defense. There are no pretty attacks on the street. And defenses aren't always that attractive either. I taught a seminar to a Hapkiido group and many of the students were appauled when I showed the Bil Jee strike (eye gouge). Many said they wouldn't do that. And forget about sticks and knives!
Students of other arts watch my classes at my school and freak when the see the non traditional approach. I should point out, we are not militant or reckless when we train. We just deal in what happens and what works with regard to personal protection. Many leave to go back to the security of their dojos where they can do nothing but kata and feel that alone will protect them. I had an Akido Nidan once who was doing really well until he had to spar. His grappling was outstanding, but he could not punch, or kick, or slip a punch. He did not fare as well when he fought. Did he work harder and try to grow as a martial artist? No, he stopped coming. He gave me some excuse about scheduling (after he'd been there a month and a half) and went back to his old school where no one would punch him, or kick him.
I could go on and on but I won't. This post is already longer that I wanted. I only want to point out to my colleagues Gary and Tracy (hope to meetTracey at camp?) that arts like KravMaga, JKD and Bushido Kempo (another art I teach) appeal to a small section of the masses. Be prepared for a possible uphill battle. I am sure that Gary Sensei is even more determined now to do it. If you get a great tip or idea, please feel free to educate me.
Best wishes,
Raffi


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 6:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 123
I think it is inacurate to say that Krav Maga like training techniques is the wave of the future for the martial arts. So long as we include the term art as a part of what we do, our training will never follow the "krav maga" path. There is nothing "artsy" about Krav Maga or Jeet Kune Do. The karateka will continue down their path of kata and kumite, which is very much a beatiful art, and may occasionally be told the self defense applications of what they do. If karate/kung fu is ever boiled down to what Krav Maga is, it won't deserve the title of a "martial art". To bring it to this level, it is appropriate to only call it self defense.

Personally I have never liked the term "martial art", what I practice is not a martial art. I practice self defense techniques that I have taken from martial arts training. I hope that the dojos and kwoons will eventually lend greater focus to self defense training, but if it goes to far, the art will be lost.

To practice a martial art is to practice a martial art. To practice self defense is to practice self defense. I say don't cloud the two. Don't call collapsing a man's trachea ART and don't call Rope Dart forms SELF DEFENSE.

Show mercy when you flame me Image
-Collin


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 7:08 am 
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Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
It seems to me as though a lot of "traditional" martial art dojo's are struggling to hold on to student's. Surely some of you are doing well with established reputations, marketing stratigies, and whatever else it takes.

I agree with Gary Khoury in the feeling like we are "one percent" of the population in being traditional. Surely many people do not want to take on a study of an art or system that will take years to be efficient in. Then after four to six years we tell our shodans that they are ready to start really learning. (would you like to sign up now?)

How does one compete with the new waves that are promoting fast learning of self defence with technique and applications being taught from day one?

Tracey says he has a program running now that is something like the Krav-maga taken out of uechiryu. (forgive me tracey if i'm not completely accurate)
Maybe from a business point of veiw one has to consider heading in this direction if one wants to stay in business? Of course then we are compromising the traditional style that we have put in so many years at. Unless i'm missing something here. Or are we talking about running something simular back to back with traditional karate?

In the South Shore of Massachussetts there is a chain of "Eclectic Karate " schools run and owned by a Paul Curtain whom has incorperated several styles into a "jitsu" type combo. Doing very well from what i hear. J.K.D. is of the same principle. No kata, exersize routine, or kumite's as we know them.

I can understand people not wanting to put in "years" of trainning to learn how to be effective in defending onself (hopefully). Certainly the average person cannot understand the depth of what it is we do on a continuos path for year after year.

I have said that if protecting oneself in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of effort and money is ones only concern, they should simply just buy a gun.

Van Canna's "Self Defense Realities" certainly makes one realize how vulnurable he/she can be at any given time. However, we cannot run around every minute of each day waittng for the "life and death" moment of truth to confront us. Although, i do believe that some of us do? Surely we hope that we are prepared for it as best can be.

My point is, it seems to me as though we are trying to "sell" karate in marketing it after all these half ass unqualified people have opened dojos all over the place and cheapened the value of real "tradtional" karate only to close up shop and tarnish the value of what real committed instructors of "many years" are trying to maintain.

Is this another dilemma? Surely i will continue to teach the complete art of traditional uechi-ryu, even if i only have but a few before me whom want to learn it, for i myself as many of you (i'm sure) know no other way!

------------------
Gary S.


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 100
Location: LA, CA, USA
Gary S said...

"I have said that if protecting oneself in the shortest amount of time with the least
amount of effort and money is ones only concern, they should simply just buy a gun."

This sort of statement is a peeve of mine (though not a pet one). I have seen comment similar to this seems to come up sometimes when an individual (or lots of them) want to learn self defense in a relatively short period of time. The times I have seen it it has come from traditional stylists responding to questions like "what martial art can I learn well enough to defend myself in in a relatively short period of time?" Perhaps I am wrong in your case, but when coming from others this response has seemed to reflect a bit of a defensive "sour grapes" attitude.

There are many situations in which someone might either not be able to have a firearm, or where using one might not be appropriate. For example, there are places where one cannot have a firearm, or where having one can get you in a massive amount of trouble. These include large areas of airports, many government buildings, schools, airplanes, and in many cases some countries (such as England, where I lives for several years). While I hope it never happens to any of us, if by mistaken identity a person should find themselves in jail, you probably will not have much chance to defend yourself with a firearm.

Second off, there are times when maximim lethal force is not desirable. What if someone is a bouncer, a bodyguard, or an orderly in a mental institution? Do you really advocate shooting a drunk who happens to be too loud? Perhaps escorting them off the property with a wrist or arm lock would be a better idea? Should bodyguards shoot agressive autograph hounds who get too close to the actor they are escorting? Should an orderly shoot a patient who is reluctant to go back to his room?

Firearms can be appropriate, but they are not always the best choice. Some people have a definite need to learn hand to hand combat skills in as short a time as possible.

I have no strong opinion about this "teaching traditional along with potentially more popular quick self defense." I have not put much thought into this topic. Personally though, I tend to think that people should study whatever they want to, and whatever suits their needs, and that I should generally avoid condemning their motivation or choice (unless they are learning from an incompetent, a fraud, or an abusive person). When I fenced, I did it because it was fun. Nobody had to sell me on its combat efficiency. When I did Aikido (a very popular traditional art, that seems to be pretty healthy as far as attracting students goes), I did it because it was beautiful, not because I thought it would make me the ultimate street fighting machine.

(When I did fence there was an idiot who would sometimes watch us, and he'd sometimes say "well, if I had a gun I could kill you all dead." Wow! What a revelation! He didn't seem to realize that this was not what we were about.)

I don't know if Uechi is perhaps not as popular as it once was, or if many people drop out because they believe it is not for them. I have no idea, and I mean no insult to your style. I can understand the desire to be popular, but I suspect that you will always find people who sense that your style is right for them, and will stick with it.

Some people want to learn to be gourmet cooks, but most people who want to learn to prepare food just want to learn enough cooking to be able to feed themselves. Some people love gardening, and experiment with all sorts of flowers and shrubs. Others just want a lawn mower that works reasonalby well. Some people love the hobby of fine wine, and others are happy with a six pack of cheap beer. Should those who wish to pursue more esoteric interests condemn the much larger population who are not motivated to do the same?

Scaramouche


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 4:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 100
Location: LA, CA, USA
This one, on the other hand, _is_ a pet peeve of mine...

Collin Warder said...

"I think it is inacurate to say that Krav Maga like training techniques is the wave of the future for the martial arts. So long as we include the term art as a part of what we
do, our training will never follow the "krav maga" path. There is nothing "artsy" about
Krav Maga or Jeet Kune Do. The karateka will continue down their path of kata and
kumite, which is very much a beatiful art, and may occasionally be told the self defense
applications of what they do. If karate/kung fu is ever boiled down to what Krav Maga
is, it won't deserve the title of a "martial art". To bring it to this level, it is appropriate to only call it self defense."

I really dislike it when people try to establish rules of reality by using language, instead of realizing that words are simply an imperfect way of trying to understand our reality. This trick of very selectively using definitions of "art" in "martial art" is one I've seen before.

One thing those who play this game fail to realize is that "art" (and "martial" for that matter) have several meanings, and that, for example, "art" also means (according to my dictionary) "the technique involved," "a sphere in which creative skill is used," and "(any) other skill."

"Arts" do not have to be "artsy," or flowery. Many arts, even "fine arts" have practical applications, and are sometimes typified by simplicity or utilitarian characteristics. Architecture is a fine art, for example, and many creations of architects (depending on the period and other factors) are extremely practical, and designed mainly for very basic functions.

Swordmaking is an art, and I would argue that many simple blades that could actually be used in combat are at least as much works of art as decorative and ornate blades that can barely hold an edge.

Furthermore, the term "martial art" is simply a construct of the English language, and there is no single term that is used in other languages that clearly and universally defines such activities. To try to hold such a diverse spectrum of styles and systems in a tiny conceptual cage created out of a particularly narrow definition drawn from just one language seems a bit of a reach to me. It would be sort of like saying that because a particular pun works well in English, that it should be equally funny when trasnslated into every other tongue spoken on the planet.

Scaramouche

ps, how do you know that there is nothing beautiful in Krav Maga or JKD. Have you studied them?


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 4:40 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Hang it there gang! Mark my word. . . Traditional is not dead . . . only hibernating!

I think the traditionalist are missing the point. Instead of spending so much time trying to "catch the next wave", we should be steadfastly focusing on the benefits of what we do best and what this program can do for the public.

"The Wave Hoppers" jumps on every new hyped-up gimmic, designed to give instant results with no effort. After a few weeks, when the novelty wears off, and they realize this newest craze still involves work, they look for the next marketing slogan promises "everything" for only 16 payments of $39!

Because the masses are so quick to abandon the old for the new, the traditionalist become demoralized and begin to believe the press releases and paid ads. They begin to doubt themselves, their abilities and their programs.

Get back to what we offer in our traditional dojo and spend time getting interviews from happy parents and pleased adults. By all means, supplement your program with your own version of TaeBo, KroMagnum or chiforbraindeadyuppies.

But understand that even though Taebo still exists, the smart money is already looking for the next sucker gimmick for the gullible.
Once everyone has the video, Billy's marketing team must move to phase II. . . selling franchises. . .

Remember Richard Simmon's cycle of doom?

First the media hype, then the video tapes, then the franchises, followed by franchises closing, followed by new media hype for new product. . .

We have the quality product. . We have the ability to join together and get the message out. . . One percent!!! It isn't the number that bothers me, it's reaching those people that should be addressed.

If the traditionalist stopped the petty jealousies and bickering, they could pool their talents and marketing clout to accomplish something. Instead of this, we argue over whose belt is the blackest and longest and whose teacher is the best!


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 7:08 pm 
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Posts: 123
Scaramouche:

First off, what I stated was my personal opinion on the issue, and was not intended to be written law. I don't feel that things with lethal potential can at all be called an art. Perhaps this just stems from what I find asthetically pleasing. Yes, it is true that much of what I said was a manipulation of the english language, but there is a deeper meaning to it.

ARTS like the traditional karate-do's and kung fu's are truly arts. There is much, much more to them than simply self defense. I think I do not need to go into the depth of the beauty of well performed katas, nor do I need to discuss the spiritual insight that these arts provide. If you take away these things, and move strictly to self defense, then you have lost the art. Again I state that maiming and killing is not art, at least not where I come from. Self defense techniques are designed to maim and kill. Techniques held within katas are expressed in ways such that the realities of the techniques and the situations in which they are to be applied are often hidden from the practioner. There is much beauty in this.

No I have not studied Krav Maga. I have read what information is available through their websites and I have also studied the training of the Israeli Military. Yes I have studied Jeet Kune Do under a qualified instructor. Not Jun Fan Gung Fu, which as I am told, still has many of the asthetic qualities of Wing Chun. No I have not trained in JKD as long as you have (I believe I read that you study under Guru Insonato), but in the time that I have studied JKD, I have not found anything beatiful or artful in it. I suppose it all depends on my perception of beauty. There are many that would say the sensitivity training in JKD is a beautiful thing. Whatever. Curiously, what do you find beautiful about this training?

-Collin


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 1999 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
1) No one is suggesting we give up our 'traditional' ways. I believe that Uechi has everything in it to allow one to be successful.

2) We should look krav and any other successful program. We can learn from what they do.

Uechi may be the greatest style etc. but if no one knows how good is it or what it is?
We need to be rooted in reality. This is what UFC, brazilian JJ and now Krav is reminding us of. Kata is excellent for transmitting ideas and concept but you still need the 'lab' work to really understand what kata is saying (hence bunkai, kumite, drills etc.). For example, our dojo modifies kyu kumite (we call it cowboy night at Billy Bob's Bar) so that students can explore their technique against more *real* or more likely types of attacks. I keep coming back to this, but have a person in a impact suit attack a karate student. Watch what happens. Watch what happens after about a dozen attacks, notice the difference in response! There is nothing like intense, real based practice. Why shouldn't we adopt some of these Krav concepts and integrate them into our dojo? I have been doing this (not Krav based but introducing weapons, makeshift weapons, integrating knife/club into Uechi fighting etc.) and I know many of you have been also. This is not adopting a fad but a part of what we should be offering to our students. Isn't this what classical MA are about or did I miss a lesson or two?? Aren't we teaching fighting ??


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 Post subject: KravMaga
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 1999 3:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 635
Location: Johnston, RI
Tracey Sensei,
Yes, what we are teaching is fighting. It seems sometimes people lose sight of that. People may choose to train in martial arts for a variety of reasons. Regardless, they are still practicing fighting techniques. It is unfortunate that so many students/teachers/black belts get into the analytical realm and forget to train. I see so many students all over just walking through techniques and never training them to the level where it would be effective. They like to discuss and analyze the hell out of these techniques though. But train them hard?? Why, of course not. My JKD teacher has actually revoked instuctors licenses when someone fails to train and stay sharp. It is a great motivator. Maybe if black belt ranks weren't permenant, things would be different.
Finally, I really don't think there is any other criteria for what makes a martial art an "art", other than its effectiveness.
Yours in Budo,
Raffi


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