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 Post subject: Dead Simple II
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 1999 11:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Sacco,

Welcome to the forums. You wrote:

>>As an aikijujitsu practitioner, I think it needs to be pointed out that traditionally there have been three levels to control of an opponent. These ranged from the extensive use of striking techniques to disturb the opponent's balance and then do a throw or control, to being able to instantly move into a throw or control based entirely on feel. The crux is that you need to work your way up through the levels, because if you are at the top and get in a jam, you can always return to breaking his nose as you pile his neck into the groung, but you can't rely on "harmonizing" and expect to adapt to changing circumstances.<<

I am intrigued. Can you be more specific about what the "three levels" are.

Also, I agree "harmonizing", as I hear it often defined, can not be the end all response. It is one of the possible responses. The typical definition I hear of "harmonizing" is that of "blending" or "yielding" as incorporated in the very term "JUjitsu" (JU = "soft" or "yielding".) This version of harmonizing is most appropropriate in a "sen no sen"(mutual initiative) or "go no sen" (late initiative)response to an attack, especially by a much stronger opponent. "Irimi" (entering) is best, in my opinion, as a "sen sen no sen" (early initiative) or "sen no sen" response. One senses an opponent's attack and enters BEFORE the attack is launched, or one enters/counters at the same time as the attack is made. They all have their place, even in the short span of one confrontation. Utimately, if one can utilize entering or yeilding as required by the specific moment, I think one is in deed "HARMONIZING" on a higher level.

I am curious what style/branch of aikijujitsu are you studying?

david


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 Post subject: Dead Simple II
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 1999 1:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 21
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
The three levels are usually referred to as some variation of aiki jujitsu, aiki no jitsu, and aiki jitsu. What these referred to is a reliance on striking techniques to disrupt an opponent's center and then throw them, using joint manipulation (causing pain and therefore imbalance) to set up a throw, and then just harmonizing body dynamics to set up a throw. In my understanding, this is related to the sen sen, sen zen, go no sen issue, but distinct. Those are strategies for dealing with a direct attack (before, during, and after), while the aiki no jitsu etc. reflects one's skill level in terms of how little one can hurt an opponent and still subdue them.

As for my style, my instructor holds a menkyo license with an organization called the Kaze Arashi Ryu, but has chosen to go his own way. From what I understand, the founder of the Kaze Arashi Ryu was a classmate of Ueshiba in what became known as the Daito Ryu.


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 Post subject: Dead Simple II
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 1999 10:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Sacco,

Thanks for the reply. Okay, the "three" levels" are not much different from what I perceive to be possible in aikido practice/techniques as well. (Whether folks practice it is another story...) I actually think of them as three different but not exclusive types of responses. For example one can blend with attack, strike, effect a control, strike again and throw.

>>. From what I understand, the founder of the Kaze Arashi Ryu was a classmate of Ueshiba in what became known as the Daito Ryu. <<

I think you may have misspoken here. Daito ryu (aikijujitsu) is the art that Ueshiba studied under Takeda Sokaku. It was already known as such. Some of the earlier Ueshiba students were given certificates that named the art learned as Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu. As Ueshiba split away from Takeda because of personal (religious) beliefs and evolving/differing emphasis in his waza, his certificates used different names for the art until it finally became known as aikido.

Another question which pertains to the original thread. Have you been to an aikido dojo? If so, what do you think differentiates your aikijujitsu practice from aikido and makes it perhaps more "dead simple" in real life application.

thanks,

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited 08-06-99).]


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 Post subject: Dead Simple II
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 1999 2:07 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 21
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
You're right about my mistake. As I understand it, Nishiyama (founder of the Kaze Arashi Ryu) was a classmate of Ueshiba under Takeda Sokaku.

As for "dead simple", I'd be remiss to refer to aiki jujitsu that way. In all honesty, I have very little first-hand experience with aikido, most of what I know I have read in books about it. From my limited understanding, however, it appears that for a number of reasons Aikido is greatly simplified Aiki jujitsu. That statement is not meant to be at all derogatory. The techniques, for example the controls, can teach one a great deal about movement, energy, and sensory perception. One way of intensifying this practice is to limit the number of variations one practices, so one can focus one's practice. For practical application, there is a happy medium between to many variations and not enough. As Ueshiba was aiming for personal development, I feel he erred on the side of too few. The other drawback I see with Aikido as training for the real world is, as we've been discussing, the absence of striking techniques. For aikido to be more "dead simple", one must know what to do and not to do with the energy of a real punch, not one with a ten-foot running start.

Sacco


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 Post subject: Dead Simple II
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 1999 11:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Boston, MA
Sacco,

>>For aikido to be more "dead simple", one must know what to do and not to do with the energy of a real punch, not one with a ten-foot running start.<<

C'mon, be fair. It's really more a five feet running start with the arm drawn way back like an arrow. Image

Thanks for your reply.

david


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