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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 1999 3:34 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Van and company: I've been trying to get my wife to train more often with handguns and to use something bigger than my .22 Ruger, but she has been ambivalent about it. Yesterday, however, a house not too far from ours was the object of a home invasion by two gunman in the middle of the day.

The lady of the house left her garage door unlocked while doing yardwork and the two masked and gloved felons slipped inside. When she went inside she was confronted and she gave them what they wanted - money, car keys, credit cards - and fortunately they tied her up and left her unharmed. Postscript - they were seen on video cameras today when they tried to use a bank card to get cash so their trail is very hot!)

This event got my wife's attention so today she agreed to go to the range and practice with something bigger. I had her use the S&W .357 but I loaded it with the new Federal Hydra Shock Reduced Recoil Premium Self Defense ammo. Wow, what a nice round. Very low recoil but advertised to be as effective as the regular Hydrashock. Linda went through several boxes at ranges from 7 to 25 yards and was consistantly hitting center of mass on the targets. When we got home, the S&W went into her lock box instead of the .22 Ruger. She just did not like the recoil of the Glock .45 or the S&W Ti .38 so I'm pleased she now is comfortable with a straight shooting larger caliber weapon.

Van: Any thoughts on this 'Premium Protection' ammo? The speed is higher but the bullet weight dropped from 129gr to 110gr.

Another question for you hand gun afficianados - What do you think of the compact Glock .45s? The current models hold 10 rounds and are fairly large for a pocket piece. A new model due out soon has a single stack clip holding 6 rounds and has a narrower profile, closer to the Glock compact 9mm. Should I stick with Glocks or look into other makes? Should I stick to .45?

Regards, Rich


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 1999 9:20 am 
Hello Rich,

(from "and company")

The most popular handgun for women that I can remember is the .38 or .38 special for extra oomph. A small 9 could even fit the bill. A .357 is designed for range, the bullet may not mushroom adequately at short ranges, and can kick like a mule; the .45 has more heft and is not exactly purse-size, although to me the heavier weight of a .45 is an attribute to its accuracy.

Shotguns are better for house protection.

I don't know what they make for new designs, so my comments are from the "old school" but better get your gun now before you can't anymore...



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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 1999 9:20 am 
@#$@$%%#

This forum is acting real weird lately. Even loosing original messages (this one may not take either).

Hesitate before you hit the submit button a second time. Patience...


[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 08-07-99).]


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 1999 9:24 pm 
Speaking as a wife with a handgun given to me by my husband, I do perfer the smaller .22 to other larger handguns. While I know it has no real stopping power and only an accurate range of about 10 feet, I concider it more as a visual deterant than as a weapon. In the case of home invasion and property protection I would go straight for the rifles instead of the handguns anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 1999 2:08 am 
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Rich,

Get your wife used to a small Glock .45! A stress proof gun women will get to like quickly! She will neither feel recoil nor likely hear the blast in a home invasion scenario! Get away from Revolvers with an exposed hammer, lest you fall prey to rapacious prosecutors and ambulance chasers!

A rifle …never for home defense in urban settings! The bullet that will miss will travel through walls and the house next-door possibly killing innocents! {Shelly hear this}!

A double barreled, side by side, {Sicilian Lupara}, in 12 or 20 gauge is perfect for safe stress proof weapon, very intimidating and very effective with no. 6 shot!

All long guns to be deployed from the safe room, with a Glock .45 as backup! Never go looking for an intruder! Keep a cell phone in your bedroom, get a mean dog!

Big fat bullets always work best at close range!


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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 1999 2:15 pm 
Van Canna

Slight personal offense taken...I know rifles are not idea for urban settings. I'm a country girl by birth and though we live near St. Louis now, we still have no close neighbors around our house. I do agree with your safe room concept. Our house is kind of shaped into a "L". We keep the semi-auto hand gun in the bedroom at one end of the house and the rifles in the cabinet at the other end of the house. Both "fallback" rooms have heavy locking doors and two ways out to buy us time in the case of home invasion. It isn't that we are paranoid, we just plan ahead. Two hundred years of pioneering ancestors had to leave their mark somehow.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 1999 3:49 pm 
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Location: Marlboro,MA US
"get a mean dog"

To much a pain in the living space. My dog is 105lb pure bred lab. He is a walking goofball. Great with the kids and neighbor kids. Has a natural distrust of large males (of the human species). His job is to bark making him the perfect roving alarm system. Did I mention that he is 105 lbs. of head, neck and shoulders? Very intimidating. He barks sounds the alarm. Mean dogs are hard with neighbors etc. They are a liability (and a tort waiting to happen. Much like the I load my own bullets syndrome. "You bought that pit bull just waiting for some poor unsuspecting burglar from a bad family background to break in so you could torture him with that ferocious animal who has only one purpose etc...)

Better off hardening your house. See Massad Ayoob "The truth about self defense" for ideas...

later


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 1999 7:25 pm 
We do have dogs...the Alaskan Malamute (110lbs) appears mean as long as know one pets him. They are extremely territorial but are not barkers. However our little 25 lb Sheltie is extremely protective and an excellent judge of people. With her excellent hearing, she starts barking whenever anything sounds out of the ordinary. Unless we are robbed during a thunder storm when she is hiding under the covers of our bed, I feel pretty secure with her. I have definately learned to trust her judgement on repair men or anyone else who may come into the house.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 1999 10:08 pm 
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No offense meant, Shelly; welcome to my forum!

To be sure, rifles are a formidable component of a home defense battery, but more situations dependent! Remember, the biggest problem is the shot gone wild that carries for a mile or more! The criminal and civil exposures are great!

During the ’92 riots in Los Angeles, time after time looters were observed bypassing the businesses with an owner shouldering a shotgun! It is the most intimidating fight stopper in the world!

John Farnam, the famous tactician and police trainer, states that no punk mistakes the deadly intent of a shotgun being raised to the shoulder! Very psychological, especially the “funeral procession” subliminal image of a short side-by-side “Lupara” with two “sure shots” at argument range! If there is a modern “hammer of Thor” that is it!

Farnam describes the “urban rifle” as useful for defense between 30 and 150 meters in open land! The .223 caliber is what he recommends!

Tracy has a good point about the big dog; a small loud one to give you the alert is probably better!



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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 1999 1:34 am 
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Van sensei: Good points. Actually, I was going to start a new thread asking the question as to what handgun should be my next choice? Glock has many choices, including several more in .45. A new slimmer compact Glock .45 will be out soon with a single stack clip that holds six .45 rounds. It is actually a bit narrower than the compact 9mm with the standard ten round double stack clip.

Things to consider? Well, I'd like to stay with the .45 for ammo commonality. Also, the new Glock 36 would be easy to conceal. Also in .45 is the H&K USP which a friend has and is a heavier pistol. The Glock is a spoiler with the safe action, and I wonder if I should become familiar with something that has a safety and decocker, and SA/DA to broaden my knowledge base.

I've fired the Glock compact 9mm and it has a light recoil for such a small and concealable pistol. Something my wife would appreciate. However, the 9mm is not a big slug. There is also the benefit of the 9mm being less expensive to practice fire, leading to better placement. That may be an offsetting feature versus the .45.

The new Federal 'Premium Protection' Hydrashock low recoil rounds gave my wife a better experience with the .357 revolver. (By the way, I cautioned her to fire double action only.) As she gains more confidence with that handgun I'll reintroduce the Glock .45 with the same lower recoil round. I'd like her to consider keeping a compact Glock in her purse but that will take more time and training.

I welcome additional comment.

Regards, Rich


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 1999 2:45 am 
Now I'm on the asking side...

1) Reads like they make a low power .45 ammo and lightweight handgugns for women these days. Is this true?

2) Van, I always liked a 12 gauge with 00, even in the house although it is primarily deer load. What is the advantage to using #6 in the house. I wonder if a choke makes much difference at close range, like 10 feet?

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 1999 5:05 am 
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Rich,
You should familiarize yourself with all pistol action systems! I don’t like to own many with a “decocker”! Under stress you will forget to decock the gun and shoot yourself in the leg or kill an innocent bystander! It happens quite often!

The only other gun really worth training with and owning is the famous Colt .45 ACP! Those guns are safe to be carried cocked and locked and the thumb safety can be programmed very easily to work well under stress by the right training under the combat masters! Still they are much more prone to accidental discharge than Glocks! But the greatest guns to shoot for competition!

The way to own guns is to first decide what you want the gun to do, and how you envision using it and carrying it! For your wife a single stack Glock [easier for a woman’s hand to wrap around the butt for trigger control] makes sense for both home defense and range scenarios!

Remember, the danger of the Glock is the round people forget is still in the chamber! That is where the real inoculation safety training lies! A visual indication of whether a round is in the chamber is given by the position of the trigger i.e., fully forward, chamber loaded__ back towards the grip, chamber empty!

Don’t be seduced by accuracy talk; when the time comes the gun hand will be convulsive in a grip of death, the sights will disappear as your vision tunnels in on the punk, in spite of the best training and you will “jab” the weapon at your assailant at close range! The best way to practice defense drills is to shoot at your targets at “ bad breath” {garlic}? Range!

Allen,

Number 6 shot is a compromise between stopping power and penetration!
The shotgun will stop the momentum forward of the biggest and meanest assailant and probably kill him before he hits the ground! The impact by the large number of pellets compounds the blow, like being hit by 9 --.30 caliber bullets at once at close range if you use 00 buck!

The “spread” of the load at close range is no more than a few inches in diameter!
The shotgun is still a long gun and you don’t go poking around corners with it or it will be taken away from you! The shotgun is “artillery” and best used from an ensconced position in the safe room! The primary home defense weapon should be a high caliber handgun!

If you live in an apartment, only use birdshot [9’s] or you will kill the girl next door you planned to marry!

If you live in a house with lots of clearance around and you envision using the shotgun as the last resort weapon from your safe room with your family safe inside; then Mas Ayoob prefers no. 1 buck, 24 pellets the size of pencil erasers which will penetrate walls but will slam the home invader into hell!

A pump action shotgun can be very demoralizing to an assailant when he hears the “ratchet sound” of the shell being pumped into the chamber! But people under stress will short stroke the gun!

When the shotgun goes off inside the house you will be affected by its blast and flash in spite of auditory exclusion! You need to set up you perimeter defense with enough warning to don a set of “wolf ears” [electronic ear muffs], which will make you hear the sounds of the house 10 times over but will reduce the signature of a gun blast to the sound of crashing waves! I have one in my night table! It is an amazing device!

Don’t be surprised to find you have soiled your pants[ if you had time to put them on] in the process! Ever fired a shotgun butt naked? Try it some time!!

At 10 feet choke means nothing!

Good thing with a shotgun is that if after two shots the punk is still standing you can “clothes line “ him with it!




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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 1999 3:38 pm 
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Thanks for the advice Van. My weapons instructor has a few versions of the Colt .45 and I can try them. He currently has one for sale that is a 'Springfield' set up for competition. The decocker and safety on several pistols I tried did concern me. As I would like a second .45 auto other than the Glock I'll look closely at the Colt. One benefit is the plain vanilla variety is relative lower cost, and lots of pre-owned ones are available. I'd probably purchase a new one though.

The new Glock .45 single stack is also on the wish list, as are other things. I'll start a new rifle thread later.

Regards, Rich


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 1999 8:41 pm 
Years ago I fired a weapon from within a small enclosed area once, and only once. It is a small wonder that I have any hearing left. And the pain is like nothing else, not to mention the shock it puts you into momentarily as you stagger around for a few seconds.

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 1999 1:29 am 
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Hi Allen: Since I have taken up practicing with a hi-powered rifle as a part of the 'force continuum' I have been somewhat desensitized to the sound of a pistol. (Yes, I do wear ear protection.) However, I have not experienced a .357 in a completely darkened room butt naked.

I do visit a range that allows control of the lighting at various distances and in your lane. It is something to see that flash in dim light. I suspect that in total darkness you would be temporarily blinded in addition to being deafened by the noise, say in a hallway.

My dear departed WW2 vet dad had very poor hearing as he got older. He was in the artilley on a 105mm gun crew and never wore ear protection. I do not even know if any was available. Besides, in a cannon duel, that was the least of your worries. I really do not know how any combat vet came away with their hearing intact.

Rich


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