Selecting the next rifle

Sensei Canna offers insight into the real world of self defense!

Moderator: Van Canna

Selecting the next rifle

Postby RACastanet » Sun Aug 15, 1999 1:15 am

Van, JT, Allen, Tracy senseis et al: I'm now considering a second hi-power rifle for my collection. The choices are many. Any thoughts?

Some possibilities:
-Another M1 upgraded to full match grade
-A plain vanilla M1 right out of the box from the 'Civilian Marksmanship Program'
-A Navy contract 7.62mm M1
-An M14 reweld (semi-auto only)
-An M1A from Springfield arsenal (these come in many versions from standard to 'Super Match')
-An M1 .30 Carbine (NAH)

I'm not too interested in an AR15 as they are in the public eye right now and the agressive look might even cause my wife to raise an eyebrow.

Discussion please.

Regards, Rich
User avatar
RACastanet
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby Van Canna » Sun Aug 15, 1999 8:40 pm

Rich,

Unless you are a hunter, stay with military target rifles!

The M1-A supermatch would be by choice!


------------------
Van Canna
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 44623
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Selecting the next rifle

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Mon Aug 16, 1999 12:17 am

Rich San:

Although it is difficult to make such recommendations, I might disagree only in the very slighest fashion with Sensei Van and recommend the Standard National Match Rifle M1A.

Only because of weight.

Some (about 1 in 3) regular match barrels shoot very well, and I maintain one in this shape and one in "Super Match" as recommended by Van Sensei.

I have been off the local match circuit for a couple of years now, so some attention should be paid to Smith Arms and Fulton Armory as to what they might be able to do in a NM Rifle.

I think either of the above still would be classified as Service Weapons.

The only other alternative is to build a "Match" rifle, which is any rifle that can complete the former DCM course of fire. There are weight limits, of course.

I built a Model 70 to take M-14 magazines (of all capacities) which could also double as a pretty convincing Tactical (PSS?) item.
As it would also accept a proper scope mount, which I don't think M-1A's have done, despite claims and the Military's use of the, what, M-21?

Any further thoughts?

J.T.


------------------


[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 08-16-99).]
JOHN THURSTON
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby RACastanet » Mon Aug 16, 1999 2:51 am

Thanks for the input. actually, I was leaning toward an M1 upgraded to match grade. One reason is commonality of parts and ammo with my current piece. The M1 I have has been upgraded but is not bedded. There is a really good gunsmith in the area who does this.

My only concern is the ammo availability but he strongly recommends Federal American Eagle 30-06 for general practice and match grade for serious practice and matches. There seems to be a better selection and availability of 7.62 ammo.

I will look closely at the M1A. The large shop in town does stock them and they are fine looking rifles. For a super match, I'd order direct and have it shipped to my weapons instructor who is a licensed dealer.

Rich
User avatar
RACastanet
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby T Rose » Mon Aug 16, 1999 2:17 pm

I am picking up a remington in 30.06. With a bipod, and entended mags it looks and performs like a baby BAR.

I should be picking it up before the end of summer. I'll let you know how it shoots...
T Rose
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Marlboro,MA US

Selecting the next rifle

Postby RACastanet » Tue Aug 17, 1999 1:33 am

More questions:

- M1A barrels are available in carbon or stainless steel.
- Stocks are either black fiberglass or walnut.

Any preferences here? Why?

-If purchasing from Springfield should it be through a dealer or direct?

Now, Springfield 1911-A1 .45 pistol questions:

-Many, many versions. The low end is mil spec. at $548 retail, and it is easy to double that cost to full super tuned. How much 1911 is enough?

-Finishes include 'parkerized', blued, stainless, lightweight matte.

-Full size (my preference) to ultra compact to 6" long slide.

-Standard (7+1) or high capacity (9+10).

Anyone have experience with these?

Rich
User avatar
RACastanet
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Tue Aug 17, 1999 3:53 am

Rich San:

1. I like the M1A as your next choice.

2. Stainless is reputed to "wear" better than Chrome Moly barrels, I don't know the metalurgical reason why.

My Krieger Barrel on M1A #2 is Stainless, it seems fine. Drawback-SS will not take a "matte" finish, so this will raise a small bit of glare.

My experience with 1911's is only moderate, I think I've owned 7-10 of them over the years, but did have not put many rounds thru any recently.

Finish is your choice depending on the use Carry=satin stainless, for target that might be a bit "glary".

Generally, with the exception of "extras" (slide release extensions, "stippling" on grip surfaces, sights) the more towards a match all out gun you get, the "tighter" and thus more finicky as to ammo or feed a gun tends to be.

This applys to custom smithing and and barrels, but maybe not for the "floor" models.

Pick the accesories that suit you and your hand size.

Barrel length; personally everyone seem to do OK with standard 5 1/2", but for competition, ask a competitor about length and barrel compensation.


J.



------------------
JOHN THURSTON
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby Van Canna » Wed Aug 18, 1999 4:00 am

I own four .45 caliber 1911’s; A Remington world war two military model; a customized Colt Commander; A Springfield Armory “Defender” with built in Compensator and A Para-Ordnance P-14, fully combat customized!

The Para-Ordnance is one of the finest 1911’s on the market today especially in their limited series [www.paraord.com] as used by Todd Jarrett to win the IPSC’s triple crown! And if you buy the gun you will get a certificate to buy two 14 shot magazines manufactured before the ban! Then the pistol will accommodate 10 shot mags as the standard! Once you hold a “limited” in your hands, it is difficult to walk out of the store without buying it!


------------------
Van Canna
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 44623
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Selecting the next rifle

Postby RACastanet » Thu Aug 19, 1999 2:08 am

Thanks for the input. My instructor down here leans toward Kimber as the best value but I will look into the Para Ordnance.

As for my M1, he helped me set it up and feels it is match grade and that I'd be disappointed with an M1a! His advice was to spend my money practicing with what I have and start loading my own ammo.

So, instead of looking for the next rifle, I will be looking closely at 1911a1 models, and looking into loading my own ammo.

Thanks, Rich
User avatar
RACastanet
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Thu Aug 19, 1999 8:11 pm

Rich San:

The .308Win is an Excellent match performer, not to denigrate the venerable 'o6, which still wins.

The M1A's, until the intervention of 5.56 Ultra Mouse Guns pretty much reigned supreme at Camp Perry for decades.

Now there is a REAL simple reason for this, in my mind, and I will give you a tip that you may not pick up elsewhere. Generally (and I mean real general) a rifle cartridge, all other things being equal, will produce the best "groups" with ammo which is loaded to as nearly fill the case as possible, (with propellant that is) minimizing the "built in" inconsistencies which might arise from the propellant not being "uniform" "settled" in the case at firing from round to round.

Thus 748 BR the choice for mass producing .308 Match Grade ammo at home (meters well, don't have to weigh every charge) and H335 for the 5.56MM.

Now, this does not necessarily apply to pistol reloading or loading for bench rifle and is based on opinion from years of frustration. It is that little incremental increase in "accuracy made easier" that sent me to 7.62. The "06 case is larger than needs to produce 2700-fps in this fashion. When it was designed (the '06) things may have been different. I think, however, the powder originally developed for the '06 was IMR 4895, which is still in production and a decent powder for use in that case.

P.S. don't load 'o6 with any powder slower burning than say, IMR 4350 for use in the M-1, even that's a bit slow. I won't bore anyone with the reason why here.

I defer to Van Sensei on .45's.

J.

------------------


[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 08-19-99).]

[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 08-19-99).]
JOHN THURSTON
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 19, 1999 10:52 pm

Kimber is a fine .45 cal. weapon for the money! The very best I have fired were the “stealth” by Wilson and a custom Les Baer!

But for the money, precision [ramped barrel], standard combat customization, and the Last of the HI-CAP clips you will be ever able to obtain, the Para ordnance is King! Why a 14 round + 1 in the chamber? People caught in the LA riots found out why!

JT is correct,the .308 is more accurate than the 30-06 and the knock down power and range difference is negligible! The M1-A also gives you large magazines easily swapped in a fire fight!

------------------
Van Canna
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 44623
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Selecting the next rifle

Postby T Rose » Fri Aug 20, 1999 1:57 pm

Both the Kimber and the P-14 are shooters right out of the box, which is more than can be said about most .45s. Para has a new (introduced a couple of years ago) mini-.45 called the P-10. The reading that I have done says that making officier sized .45s were hard due to slide mass and recoil times. The P-10 is even smaller. There is a diminishing return on size however. I love the P series but never bought one (I already have two highly customized .45s, one for carry and one for competition or carry). As for hi-cap mags, they are a definite plus. One mag of my glock 19 holds the equivalent of 3 officiers mags!!! When I carry the officier .45 I find myself breaking the tactical rules of not carrying a spare mag. 2 lbs of gun, extra mags... it sometimes is to much. Most of the time you will find my S&W bodyguard shoved in my back pocket. BUT, when I go somewhere that I don't want to be, I can guarentee it is the .45 behind the hip.

later
T Rose
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Marlboro,MA US

Selecting the next rifle

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Fri Aug 20, 1999 10:00 pm

Hello:

This is interesting info about the Paraordinance.

For carry, if I had the money today, I'd run out and get one just for the "pre ban" mags alone.

When I bought my last .45 I bought the SIG 220 and I don't think the Para Ordinace had come into its own at this time ((at least 5 years ago).

At the time IPSC stuff was being won a bit by the customis\zed Springfields in .38 Super.

I've sold a couple, but never had one to shoot (Either SA or a>38 Super).


A "double stacked" .45 appeals to my sense of symettry,


T. Rose, you have a Remington I assume a 740?


Glass stocks on comp rifles are surely more stabel and perhaps "de riguer" for bench guns. However, they sure get slick when sweaty in DCM type shoots, so my M1A's are would stocked.

For local meets one can give up 1/4" 1/2" of angle and still be in the running so to speak in Military shoots, but not for bench shoots, for which I have never loaded.

J.T.



------------------
JOHN THURSTON
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby RACastanet » Sun Aug 22, 1999 12:57 am

Ok, I went to the gunshop today to hold, price and whatever the M1A and AR 15. I was in luck as they had an M1 there as well for me to refer to. (I also checked out many 1911 types but I'll start a new thread on that).

Price wise, the AR-15s beat the M1As. A standard M1A was $1299. a match M1A about $1,600. A match AR15 came in at $1,299. A DCM version of the AR-15 was also around that price and a bare model around $900.

So, it would appear that the AR15 is the best buy. Two brands were available, Colt's and Bushmaster. Externally, they appear similar. Colt's had a 9 round clip and BM a 10 round. Any experience in this area out there? Which brand is better? The DCM version was a BM. It was extremely heavy with a lead weighted stock. I do not think I need nor want that feature. The match version was not weighted.

Van, JT, anyone, please give me some guidance here. Based on price, cost of ammo, potential acurracy, the AR-15 looks like the way to go, but which features do I need.

Rich
User avatar
RACastanet
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Selecting the next rifle

Postby Van Canna » Sun Aug 22, 1999 2:17 am

Rich,

Again it boils down to what you want the rifle to do!

If you envision an “urban” force continuum rifle, then go for the AR-15, which in addition to accuracy and very low recoil and plenty of stopping power and Hi-cap mag. Potential, possesses a real intimidation factor even if casually slung on your shoulder! Bushmaster is good!


------------------
Van Canna
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 44623
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Next

Return to Van Canna's Self Defense Realities

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests