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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 1999 11:33 pm 
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Gary Khoury sensei, sent me an article by Peyton Quinn which reaffirms the basic message of this forum; something which needs doing over and over in a continuous loop for efficient programming!

I promised Gary that I would make a multipart thread out of the article since it was that good!

Here goes part one:

Peyton says: you and your wife are walking back to your car after a nice dinner, and in a parked car next to yours there are young toughs blaring loud music! One of them is sitting on your hood!

You smile at the guy, and ask him politely to get off your car!
The punk turns to you with red glaring eyes and, “ you want me to get off your car?” He asks in a tone that screams, “ It ain’t going to be that easy.”

Lets not get sidetracked in awareness, avoidance, tactical etc.! I am looking for a physical reaction!

In spite of your training and your “confidence” in your martial arts prowess, dojo, and tournament sparring, what do you suppose your first physical reaction/manifestation will be in that moment you sense pure stand up aggression?

Any ideas?


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 1999 4:16 pm 
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Location: Bridgewater, MA USA
Very interesting,
The first instinct should be to defend those who dont posses the skills 'we' do, in this situation, the wife.

Josh


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 1999 7:05 pm 
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Location: Andover,MA
Actually, the more I thought about it I would probably first turn around, go back to the resturant and call the cops. Much safer and much cheaper.


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 1999 5:43 am 
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Location: Newton, MA
On a purely physical level, I suspect I would find myself unconsiously stepping back into a submissive posture, in that sort of nervous jerky way that is normally associated with sticking your hand on something hot. That, and listening to my heart pound as adreniline gets pumped through my system.


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 1999 5:57 am 
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Location: Andover,MA
I would have my wife get in the car on the opposite side of the "Bad guy's", lets say driver side. I would then follow her, start the car and pull away. If this jack ass wants to sit on the hood of my car then so be it, he won't be there for long. Granted they might try to sue me for injuries but better to be sued then dead.


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 1999 6:17 pm 
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The worst thing you can do is let them know that you are afraid. They'll attack like a pack of wolves.


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 1999 1:58 am 
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Josh, PM__ thanks for joining my forum, your input is greatly appreciated!

Paul et-al, good initial outlook, but I wasn’t very clear! I meant to elicit opinions on the internal “chemical response” as opposed to Physical or tactical action!

Jake was on the money! Anyone else care to expand on the concept of the “chemical response”? I.E., what do you suppose you will feel inside and why? BTW Jake, I enjoyed watching you spar with the heavy hitters Saturday night, you did well!

Trust me, Peyton makes lots of sense on this one and I wish to explore in detail!




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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 1999 3:38 am 
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Posts: 55
Location: Portsmouth,NH,US
Okay Van, I'll play.

Physical sensation: Nausea, cotton mouth, lump in throat (can I even speak?), heart pounding so hard I can actually hear it with my ears, maybe even pressure in my bladder or bowel if I'm that afraid. The first response is fear.

Then, raw fight or flight thoughts rushing through my head. "Try to think!" "Sacrifice move to save my wife?" "What can he do to me?" "Will he let me run?" "If I submit, will he be satisfied...probably not."

Then, make a decision, take a risk, assess his response, be prepared with contingencies.
"Get out of the car, honey. Get help." If she gets out okay, I try to follow after a safe time. If not, flight becomes fight and it's all about going after that talking head with both hands.

Michael


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 1999 3:52 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
I've had similar experiences and have had three distinctly different reactions. One is a wobbly feeling with butterflies in my stomach, one is a 'seeing red' and seething within feeling complete with tunnel vision, and the third reaction is 'please do not f*** with me as I've had a bad day and I am not in the mood for bulls**t.

I've never had a situation escalate so perhaps I was lucky that each response was apprpropriate for each unique experience.

Personally, I do not like that wobbly feeling at all. It was a 'flight' response and made me feel terrible for quite a while. I also got the same feeling after the 'seething' response. For whatever reason, the third response did not seem to involve the chemical coctail as noted above. I just was in a bad mood and was not going to tolerate any more BS. BTW, flying through Atlanta's airport does that to you.

Rich


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 1999 4:06 am 
World stops. Hard involuntary stare. Fface flushes past ears and downto neck. Eyes throb. Can't speak; can't even open mouth. Mind gone. Not afraid but can't move until it starts.


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 1999 4:14 pm 
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Location: Andover,MA
Unfortunately I know that "chemical cocktail" feeling all to well. A few months ago my wife and I were visiting friends in Poughkeepsie NY, where we all went to college. We were staying at a hotel in the downtown area and decided to walk to a local bar where we used to hang out years ago. As my friend, my wife and I were walking down the street we were engaging in conversation and took a wrong turn. I then notice three locals coming down the opposite side of the street. In my gut I knew this was trouble. We just kept walking and talking which of course somehow offended one them and he decide to fall in behind my friend. Now I was the only one with any kind of MA training, and In my head I thought "this is it". This was when the cocktail hit. It really hits you like a flash too, like getting drenched with ice cold water. All of a sudden you have so much energy, (too much in fact) you feel like your going to explode. He of course started to say things like I think I'm going to mug this mother F***** , this isn't a joke, walking faster. Feel free to fill in with expletives wherever necessary. We just kept walking didn't turn around. Since my wife was standing in between my friend and myself I could peripherally see where he was. All kept saying to myself was "keep calm if he tries something punch him in the throat then go for the knee." He pushed my friend a little, but again we just kept walking never turning around always keeping the same pace. He finally got the message that he wasn't going to get a rise out of us, that and he notice his friends weren't following him down the street. So he turned around and left us alone. When we came to the next intersection there was a cop in a patrol car so we told him what happened. That's when he let us know we were going the wrong way and were lucky we were not dead. He gave us a ride to the bar and on the way we passed by three guys. The officer asked if those were the guy's, we said yes and after he dropped us off he went back with lights flashing. I don't know if the officer did anything but it was nice to imagine he busted there balls somewhat. I tell you that cocktail didn't go away for the rest of the night. I was so revved up, but that excitement then turned to anger. I ran the whole scenario in my head over and over again but with my kicking the living crap out of him and his friends. I know what we did was the right thing since no one got hurt but that fact doesn't help with the anger.



[This message has been edited by Paul_C (edited 08-04-99).]


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 1999 5:27 am 
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Looks like all agree that there will be an unpleasant “chemical response” ~~

Dr. Paul Giella writes that anxiety and fear are an evolutionary necessity tied to the precariousness of life, fragile and vulnerable, requiring care, and protection if it is to continue!

Peyton Quinn writes your response will be that your chest tightens, your legs get heavy, your mind starts to race, and you may even experience a freezing up!

“ At least that’s what most people will experience, trained or untrained, when faced with a pure, evil intent to harm them. The fight or freeze reflex, as others call it” {Peyton}

Now this forum is read by thousands of martial artists of the traditional persuasion; I know for a fact that there are many who do not believe a “high ranking” budoka, especially if he was trained under the “real masters”, will experience a similar reaction!

Although We won’t get many to post, I would be interested in someone coming forward with a counterpoint while telling us a t the same time what method of training they follow which short circuits the natural flight or fight chemical response!

Any takers?


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 1999 5:34 am 
It is nice to think that we all would be calm and react with all the right things. Paul gave a good account of how he felt in a similar situation, which I will return to in a moment.

For those of us who worked with Tracey Sensei and the blue suit we can certainly appreciate why this training is a must in the dojo. (Something I must save towards.) The moment he starts to push you, you get a taste of the cocktail. That rush of energy, that wide eyed F**k you look in your eye. I found I had a simple response to being pushed -- I go forward.

SOOO, what does this mean. That I will hope to be able, like Paul, to keep it tamped down and under control. My reaction to the blue suit was respond! Not freeze, but keeping that response in check and appropriate, ahh that would be the challenge.

If we can hold that energy in check, with our fingers on the trigger (Trigger mode I think Mark MacYoung calls it), then we can make use of it. If we allow that rush to invade and control what we do, then we will make errors and expend it before we need it.

Mark MacYoung said that it was the guys who relaxed and went real calm that always worried him. The ones who got all pumped and loud, he knew he could handle. My opinion is the ones who go calm and relaxed are in control of the cocktail, the cocktail is in control of the loud ones.

Rick


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 1999 5:59 am 
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Location: Andover,MA
Personally I think it's realativly easy, for me that is, to keep things in check when only words are being said. Words have never bothered me enough so that I might do something that might get me killed. I don't know what would have happened if this guy actually took a swing at me. I would like to think I would react appropriately, but the combination of fear and adrenalin, and believe me I was scared, makes you do stupid things.


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 1999 3:25 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
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Van Sensei,

This one is simple. Brain wash yourself into not caring about your personal safety. I have had this happen on a few occasions but I don't know how to train for it, nor would I really want to. But think of that. Would your body undergoe that "flight or fight" response if you never experienced any fear at all? I could theorize many ways which we can train ourselves to "have no fear" but it wouldn't be worth the energy spent typing it.

-Collin


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