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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 1999 10:16 pm 
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Collin-san,

Your observations have much merit!

The concept you espouse is valid! But, as you indicate, some of the pathways to that mind state are less than socially desirable, border lining on the “sociopath” syndrome - And I won’t even go there! Only the true Psychopaths are emotionally defective enough to circumvent the neuro-circuitry of the fear emotion! This is why they fall easy prey to the savvy of a worthy “ emotionally intelligent” adversary who plays on their emotional weakness!

As to the average bloke, the saying goes: when you no longer fear serious crippling injury and or death, then your response will be determined, instantaneous and effective!

The talk then centers on the “samurai”, i.e., no anticipation of victory or defeat, a non chalance about death, empty mind state, and on and on!

Yet the “fear” was always there but “ fear control” always in command mostly flowing from religious beliefs of “rewards” from death in battle!

Dr. Goleman writes that but for the fear emotion, man would not have survived the Darwinian evolutionary process! More than any other emotion, fear is crucial to survival! Yet, there are downsides to its manifestations, which I believe are tied to the natural selection process! Fear manifestations “help” in winning your right to live on--- and in your preordained death to insure the survival of the fittest, such as in not feeling much pain in your final stupor of resigned death at the hands/paws of a predator!

To even think of “deactivating” –fight or flight – is suicidal!
The “inner sentinel” transmits signals to the autonomic nervous system via the “reptilian” brain which “doesn’t know” the super-conscious brain exists, thus the “primal impulse” is in control and takes care of organizing the various “body parts” for preparation of life or death!

The “funny” thing about this, from personal observation, is that the people who are not schooled to recognize such manifestations, comically deny their anxieties and fears even as they are locked deep in their embrace, such as –pallor-a fearful expression-racing pulse-freezing or clumsy motion-cessation of breathing-a tightening of the muscles of the vocal chords creating the high pitched voice of fright, loss of natural bodily fluids and vomiting!

“The entire sequence, from surprise to uncertainty to apprehension to fear-can be telescoped within a second or so”{See Jerome Kagan-, Galen’s Prophecy}___ Goleman!

And so, it is not so much as the fear or our friend ” the cocktail” to be gotten rid of , but the methods of fear and “ cocktail” control that are the subject of this thread!




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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 1999 5:35 am 
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There is an old Japanese proverb that I hold dear: "When among demons, be the King Demon." It's true that we may feel many things, but we already feel many things, no? And all these things we feel are always vying for attention, but we manage to prioritize them in order to live our lives in a somewhat less than chaotic manner. . .So, these three fellows are just a few of the many things vying for my attention, and they will get prioritized just like all the others, no matter if my gut is in a knot or not.

I admit that those without any training may be more prone to letting the many things get the upper hand, but that is so whether or not it is "shinken shobu."

Kim


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 1999 4:33 am 
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Thanks Kim for your input and welcome to the forum.

Okay, I knew that all the martial artists who don’t believe the chemical reaction applies to them would not post as they know deep inside they are in denial and by posting they would be placed in an untenable position! So by default we shall assume we are all in agreement there will be some “adrenal stress response” As Peyton puts it!

He continues: “martial arts didn’t really address what I had discovered in my bouncer work and watching things happen in that bar. It doesn’t address the real issues of adrenal stress; it concentrates almost exclusively on technique, to the point that some of the techniques were not really relevant at all to a real fight. I was very much like anybody else who has not had a lot of experience of people actually trying to hit you with the intent of doing injury, and knocking you cold and stomping you! When you perceive that animalistic intent, if you’re not used to it, it can be mind stopping, paralyzing. You hesitate, its unbelievable. I don’t know how to express this. During that early period, before I had got used to it, that’s why I was unable to use martial arts techniques, that’s why it was mainly a vicious pow, pow, pow type of thing.”

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think Peyton is right? Is there any dojo out there practicing a traditional martial art which deals with this very much disconcerting problem? Tell us about your method of training, why you think it works, and how it has been proven to work over and over! I have no interest in “ when the time comes you will know what to do”!



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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 1999 6:43 am 
On Van Sensei's other thread "Dark Force" there is a discussion of INTENT as a weapon. The focus of this intent can be chilling. When a person truly means to do you harm they focus that intent and come at you with everything that they have. If you go down they will stomp you into the earth. Your being knocked unconscious will not hold them back, only make it easier.

How do we prepare our students for this is the question. I feel that I must obtain a good impact suit (I am leaning towards Tony Blauer's as it will allow for more mobility -- anyone out there use one?). Adrenal training must be introduced into my dojo.

Until then there are a few things that I concentrate on.

1) While we do work on the pre-set kumites for historical value and to prepare the students for the formality of a dan test, I do not focus on them. We more often work on the three most common street attacks: The sucker punch (roundhouse and straight), the grab and strike as they drive you back, and the two handed grab. The problem with the bad guys is they aren't in the dojo learning to draw the hand back, step and punch. They just don't attack that way -- no one does! I think that it was Raffi who pointed out a long while ago that it is surprise that gets most people. If you are not aware of how you will get attacked on the street then you will be surprised.

2) Attacks must be done with a FOCUS OF INTENT. Your job is to make that person feel THREATENED. We also add some screaming and verbal assaults but not often enough. (Always more to work on.)

3) We work on a drill I posted a while ago that I got from Tony Blauer -- The Night of The Living Dead. Look back in the history of the threads if you want a description. The more I work this little drill the more I discover the value of it. It gets the adrenaline going and to move slowly you have to learn to control the cocktail. No it is not like a real situation but it is a beginning training of the body, mind and spirit. It also trains reactions and to react to unorthodox attacks.

4) Simplify your reactions to the basic principles.

Just some thoughts.


Rick


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 1999 12:33 am 
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So we all seem to agree there will be an adrenal response that can be disconcerting to say the least and which may cause you to freeze and wave goodbye to your martial arts skills!

In the combat kata thread, Roy has talked about adrenal conditioning through the proper practice of our forms!

Mr. Quinn, of course, teaches the same through very realistic drills and role-playing with bullet man body armor! He believes that several sessions at his school in Colorado, spaced perhaps a year apart, will achieve the objective once for all times to come!

We know that the Model Mugging program using similar body armor has proven to be very effective for women!

How do you feel about? Do you believe that a couple of sessions with bullet men charging will be enough to make you a better fighter, say 10 years from now, should you be attacked in the street?

How do you think you can condition yourself against the stand up aggression of a psychologically violent interview designed to intimidate you into victim status for the taking? How do you counter the delight of someone in instilling fear in you, freezing you where you stand and then punch you out?



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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 1999 12:42 pm 
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Van Sensei, and all:

Greetings: I just want to say how much I'm enjoying this forum, and how much I'm learning from it.As I practice several different arts, but ooly one at a time, I am fascinated to hear about the kata being conditioning for stress reaction, with a squaring off and both hands up being taught.

I all the Okinawan styles of whichI know, this is so.It does seem to work, as well.

In Okinawan Kenpo, whichI've done since 1972, sparring is done wearing bogu, armor.How well I remember the first time or so.Just like the blue suit.

Technique goes all to Hell in a handbasket.In Judo, on the other hand, contact in training is a given from day one, so you start off slow and easy and work up to slam bang randori(free play).

What's good about Judo, IMO, is that you square off in a natural stance, you're in close, and you really do the techniquwes, as in bogu or blue suit training, of course in a safer manner than that, Judo being a sport.

But you learn not to panic when your opponent grabs or slams into you, dumps you upside down on the mat and locks a hold on you, because youcan stillemerge victorious in this position.

'Course, in karate we don't want things ever to go this far, but sometimes they do.

My point being that if you train for an emergency using realistic training methods, when it actually happens, ou will be prepared for it.

I have found that kata training using combat real kata, does indeed condition both the mind and body for real fight reaction when the cocktail kicks in.

But I think there also needs to be some kind of contact training, and the suit sounds like a good way to do it.

As far as arts teachnig finesse and minute precision go, I find that when actual attack conditions occur and you are the target, gross muscular and large body movement take over.

I also find that the kiai, or sharp partial exhalation of breath, cangive you direction of the adrenalinsn surge an a little better control.But doing it too soon can cause your opponent to experience adrenalin dump, and go of on you.

When sparring in a dojo, I try to keep a carefully neutral expression on my face, until I move in, then it's Tiger Eyes.This tends to cause the 'flight reaction in opponent.

In a real situation, I am ne of those(possibly from early zen practice or maybe it's a survival trait) who becomes very calm and relaxed, outwardly, while inwardly everyhing is geared to go.

That response has on several occasions saved me from actually being attacked by people who were in my face-it's hard to build up and go off on a blank wall, so to speak, I guess.

Anyhow, thanks again, everybod-I'm learning a lot in here, especially in this forum.Pleased to make your acquaintance, Van sensei.
John Versteeg

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genjumin


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 1999 2:13 pm 
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I would not agree that the model mugging program with their suit is effective. Peyton Quinn says "perfect intent over perfect form". Intent or mindset can take you along way. People without a strong mindset but with a *high* degree of skill can go along way also. the street fighter vs. the ancient master paradigm... Which is correct. Both and neither. The strongest combination is intensity (mindset) with a target based set of techniques. You could argue that both are neccessary which is what classical Uechi ryu is about. I don't believe that the model mugging is correct. They teach aggression yes, but the technique doesn't match. Now if I were training people and had just 4 hours what would I do? I would do exactly as model mugging has done! But, I wouldn't try to teach someone something so serios and only allocate 4 hrs.

The people that I have worked with in the impact suit generally fall apart both physically and mentally the first time. Even the most physically fit person is spent after 30 or so seconds. After about 3 times on the suit they change and the change is nothing short of amazing. This change assumes that the student has an underlying foundation of teaching that incorporates usable technique (again target based) and have been grounded in the concepts of stress fighting. What they lack is experience to tie this all together. Believe me, after 2 or 3 times they become formidable!! I believe that they will retain this experience for life however as anyother skill, it will deteriorate if the practitioner is not actively training. Mindset is in part confidence and confidence is from experience and knowing your limitations. Finally, as said above, impact training or stress training etc. is not a panacea or magic bullet. It is part of a well rounded, reality based training program. btw the people who use the impact suit change their kata dramatically also...

just an opinion...
later


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 1999 6:41 pm 
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I think you said it better than I ever could. The difference between kata and dance is purpose... People who's purpose is fighting show a different kata once their experience level changes via fight, close call , impact suit etc.

Their purpose changes so does there movements. Guard that your kata does not become to "fight" oriented. We practice kate two ways in our dojo 1: practice 2: performance. In practice, we work on structural integrity, movement etc. The purpose/focus is on building. In performance we work on pure effect allowing the form to flex as needed. The purpose/focus is on using. In performnace, intent is the crucial factor. People who have been in the impact suit arena have a different viewpoint so they have a different look and feel..


Does this help??


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 1999 2:06 am 
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John Versteeg,

The pleasure is mine! Welcome to my forum. Your Experience and penetrating questions and opinions will always be welcome here! As you can see there are some well-learned formidable karate-ka gracing this page and I wish you could meet them in person some day! You are invited to become a permanent part of this group!

As you have indicated, the subjects spoken here are not addressed anywhere else on the web, yet they are so crucial to developing a mind set conducive to survival performance under extreme stress!

The teachings of Roy Bedard-sensei and Tracy Rose-sensei are as invaluable as they are formidable in person!

Enjoy,



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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 1999 2:20 am 
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Tracy sensei: I've been talking to Macho about the Blue Max and they will sell to me and my 'Health Club' dojo. There is a huge difference between wholesale and retail.

Question one: Did you get the package that includes the Blue Max and four student packages or just the Blue Max? What do you think of the gear for the students?

Q#2: Do you limit the attacks to striking or are armlocks and takedowns ok?

Macho also has kobudo weapons. Have you ever purchased any? Any of their other gear? Tonfa? Sai? Uniforms?

Thanks, Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 08-21-99).]


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 1999 4:22 am 
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Van Sensei-
Thank you very much for your powerful welcome!

I truly do wish to benefit from your and the other's knowledge and experience on this group.

This is a rare group of formidable warriors and karateka , as you have so well said, indeed.

These are people concerned with issues many do not wish to think about-issues of life and death, of living correctly every moment, with full enjoyment of the precious gift of life, with Intensity.

People who know that their art extends beyond the dojo, into every aspect of life.

And I am honored to be so welcomed by such a group of people.

Feels really good, and I thank you, and look forward to a good association here.Many good associations.

Tracy Rose sensei:Yes, your advice is very helpful.Advice is measured by who it is that gives it, and your training and experience with combat reality make this advice something of much more than passing value.

I especially find valuable the advice you gave me to not let my kata become too fight-oriented,I realized when I read it that this is something I am constantly having to fight against, but hadn't realized the eact situation.Yes, two ways of training kata sounds like a very good idea, I believe I shall make this part of my practice.

While I may have the prper responses already from Judo and Okinawan Kenpo training and certain life experiences(I am very familiar with the adrenaline dump.I wish I weren't, but there it is.I grew up in a tough environment.) I wouldn't mind going through the full course of the blue suit training, just to see where I'm at.Sounds like a really good way to go.

But I think I understand why it only takes a few times.survival instincts will kick in sooner or later if you have good training.

Oh, but it sounds like fun.:-)

Thank you to both of you, and Hello and greetings to all of you on this group.

I shall try to ontribue worthwhile things, and I know I will learn much here.Again, I am sincerely,
John Versteeg


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 1999 5:00 am 
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T. Rose Sensei says:"btw,the people who use the impact suit also change their kata dramatically."

I wonder if you would describe some of the ways in which the kata change.

I know that they do, but no one talks about this stuff anywhere.

Okinawan Kenpo practitioners who spar in bogu(llike kendo armmor, sort of) always get told by people in others styles that our kata look 'Bad,' 'sloppy', or just 'wrong.'

Of course that is always a possibillity.:-)

But the reason they look the way they do is that they are taught a certain way, which is different from say, the same form in Shorin ryu.Which I also do, and those kata do look sharp.(In the style, not so much when I do 'em.:-)

There is a different emphasis, more a focus on the feel of the techniques than the appearance of them.

Also the rhythm and tempo are different, sort of a flowing type thing, done very fast, almost to keep the opponent from seeing what you are doing, or from catching your arms or legs..

Moves become more rounded off and close in,elbows really want to protect ribs,and blocks are done as power strikes.So is everything else.

Is this anything like what you see with the impact suit training?

But no one talks about it,and I find this discussion very interesting.

Anyway, thanks in advance for your answer and advice.

John


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 1999 5:08 am 
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T. Rose Sensei says:"btw,the people who use the impact suit also change their kata dramatically."

I wonder if you would describe some of the ways in which the kata change.

I know that they do, but no one talks about this stuff anywhere.

Okinawan Kenpo practitioners who spar in bogu(llike kendo armmor, sort of) always get told by people in others styles that our kata look 'Bad,' 'sloppy', or just 'wrong.'

Of course that is always a possibillity.:-)

But the reason they look the way they do is that they are taught a certain way, which is different from say, the same form in Shorin ryu.Which I also do, and those kata do look sharp.(In the style, not so much when I do 'em.:-)

There is a different emphasis, more a focus on the feel of the techniques than the appearance of them.

Also the rhythm and tempo are different, sort of a flowing type thing, done very fast, almost to keep the opponent from seeing what you are doing, or from catching your arms or legs..

Moves become more rounded off and close in,elbows really want to protect ribs,and blocks are done as power strikes.So is everything else.

Is this anything like what you see with the impact suit training?

But no one talks about it,and I find this discussion very interesting.

Anyway, thanks in advance for your answer and advice.

John


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 1999 3:30 am 
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“ What the f__ are you doing here man? What the f__ are you looking at?

You, instead of showing fear, calmly look at him not showing fear and not saying anything for several seconds, like you are not overly concerned or overly anxious to respond!

Not what you will say that is really important but the presence you will project to convince the “interviewer” you are neither paralyzed in fear nor denying what is happening!

Do you think you can project? How?

What if you can’t; what do you think the punk is thinking if you cannot project?

References: Peyton Quinn


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: BREAKDOWN
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:05 am 
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Van Sensei says:"Do you think you can project?How?"

Koichi Tohei wrote a book called "Ki in Daily Life" where he gives actual drills to learn to project this calm certainty.

I precticed these, and taught them to students.

You look directly into the opponent's eyes while imagining a stream of energy, like water, coming from your center of gravity or hara and streaming out through your eyes and penetrating the opponent's eyes and very soul, and, most importantly,going through the opponent and on out to infinity.

Basically the "thousand yard" stare so familiar to soldiers who fought on the ground during Vietnam.

Since you are focussing on the energy flow, you are not focussig on your fear-in fact, you may have successfully transformed your fear into useful energy.

Dr. Daniel Jordan, late of Amherst, said once that "anxiety is energy without direction."I believe this may be a key to transforming the fear and tension that we normally would have, plus the blast from the primal past we get when the cocktail dumps, into the type of usable projection and focus of intent that we need to stop a situation before it starts.

If I may relate an anecdote to illustrate:I was once invited to a dojo of another instructor in a different style, to demonstrate some things for his students.One of them was a relatively new student, however he was an obvious body builder somewhat taller than myself(I'm 5'9 and built like a barrel) and he was somewhat aggressive.As he was asked by the instructor to stand as my uke for some techniques(locks) I was showing, he says to me,"now, I'm really gonna cuff ya."

I turned on the power in the gaze and sent him with it alone ten feet back into a wall in total fright.I made no move, just used that technique.

Then I "switched off," and he came forward again.As he got halfway back to me, I turned it on again and back he went into the wall.

The Instructor at the dojo was freaked, and really taken aback.But it is a simple mental imaging drill that can be shown in five mnutes, or learned from that book.

Tohei said samurai used to play those games with each other ,projecting from the gaze then suddenly switching off and watching the other man fall into them-they had been projecting back and there was now nothing to project at.

For what it may be worth.

John Versteeg


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