Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:22 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 1999 3:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30255
The question was “Do you think you can project? How? What if you can’t; what do you think the punk is thinking if you cannot project?
How many times have you been in a similar situation, perhaps not as direct with swear words and outright aggressive intent, and you simply decided to ignore it, look the other way, pretend the verbal attack is not really taking place, secretly hoping it would go away? Meanwhile an uneasy feeling began the “churn” in your stomach and you felt an emotional slap by the little man on your shoulder that said, “ You big tough karate guy, you are backing down again”!
Never happened to you? Never felt inside as described above? Who are you kidding? How did you feel when you got home? Sleep well? How did you feel the next day when you taught your next class? What lies or rationalization did you feed your students? Did you attack the bag and or the makiwara?
What do think the punk was thinking when he saw you ignore him and back down? Ever consider your demeanor turning into the trigger for him to launch the attack?
Don’t expect too many hits on this one! Remember “DE Nile”??

References: Peyton Quinn




------------------
Van Canna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 1999 3:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Van Sensei_
Well, it feels terrible when something happens like that.

That is the kind of thing that can lead you on a personal quest for answers to the situation that may take you all kinds of places, some not even necessarily connected directly, or not seeming to directly connect to, martial arts.

Ki, Qigong, Philosophy, Religion,Prayer, Meditation,Therapy Groups, New Age Movements,Stress Management Training, Weapons Training,talking with people who have combat experience from wars,are only a few of the avenues that, if one is honest, one might search.

Ultimately the fact is that no one is a Superman, that if you are taken aback, caught off-guard, sick, or just not feeling "with it", this can happen.

The training that one can do, as given in the Tohei book, can enable one to recover very quickly, however, and I hope everyone is able to get a copy of this wonderful manual of Ki training and concepts.

Of course, some people are overagressive and will attack the attacker, needlessly getting themselves and anyone with them into a could-have-been avoided conflict.

Mas Oyama of Kyokushinkai once said that the strongest ki a martial artist could have is just the starting point for a person with a strong religious faith.To hear a martial arts master say a thing like that gives one pause, indeed.

One does need to keep one's awareness about them at all times, if this is possible.Master Tohei says the key to ki is to keep one's focus on the "one point" throughout the day.

But he says it is enough to train in breathing fifteen minutes in the morning and fifteen minutes in the evening.This is interesting because my Okinawan Kenpo teacher said, when I asked him how he trained(he is formidable indeed), that he, too, spent about fifteen minutes in the morning.I asked him on what, and he answered, "Oh, you know-Basics."

Since I had been training with him twenty years, I was perhaps ashamed to ask him to elaborate further.:-)

Wish I had, now.But Mr.Tohei's advice, plus kata, will serve.

Sincerely,
John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 1999 4:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30255
Good post, John__very good post!

------------------
Van Canna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 1999 2:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 21, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 106
Location: Andover,MA
I'm sorry but this post bothers me. Maybe I'm taking it the wrong way but I find it rather insulting. To say a person is in "DE Nile" or "making excuses for themselves" because he or she didn't kick the crap out of someone who insulted them is absurd. Part of Martial Arts is learning discipline. The discipline to know when to fight and when not to fight. Some one hurling insults at you, and I don't care what they say, is no reason for violence. That churning feeling in your stomach and that little slap across your face, isn't fear it's your pride being hurt. A feeling I know quite well. I've been in two situations where insults have been thrown at me one I mentioned in the last Breakdown thread, another while vacationing in Indonesia. A street vendor for some reason was so pissed at me he followed me a good two blocks spouting every English swear word he could remember. He even went so far as to show me his fist. Did I punch him? Break his kneecap? Paralyze him for life? No. I laughed at him. I laughed all the way back to the hotel. Did I want to hit him? Of course! I went through whole scenario at what I wanted to do. But I am PROUD to say I didn't. Who knows maybe the next time I am in a similar situation where some one is insulting me and my reaction causes him to attack me. If that happens that person better be sure of themselves because I know I am. The question this thread should be asking isn't why didn't I hit this guy for insulting me. It should be why do I feel the need to hit someone for insulting me.

Then again maybe I'm just in De Nile.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 1999 2:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30255
Relax Paul, the message of the thread is totally different than what you might perceive! I write it with emotional overtones
to get a reaction so that the message sticks
when viewed in its entirety!

Stay tuned!

PS. Your incident in Indonesia may have some lessons for all of us here! Care to share more? Like what did he perceive you might have done or said that pissed him off;what was he holding when chasing you around; was it possible he could have been hiding a weapon? Did you turn your back on him as he was dogging you? How did you eventually get rid of him? Did you notify the police?

------------------
Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 08-25-99).]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 1999 6:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 21, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 106
Location: Andover,MA
I apologize for getting a little fired up. They way I read your post it sounded like you feel it's better to get in the face of an aggressor and hope he backs down, instead of quietly walking away. Personally I feel projecting that sort of attitude with someone who is being aggressive towards you is a dangerous gamble. I feel it's better to walk away. Though you have a right to your own way of thinking and I shouldn't be insulted by it.

Anyway. Indonesia. My friends and I were walking around Bali in an area a large number of street vendors. A man came up to me and started trying to sell me a handful of "Silver" bracelets for 20,000 Rupiah, which is the equivalent of about $2.00. I of course was skeptical of the quality and didn't want to buy them. He kept insisting dropping the price and I just kept saying no. He finally left me alone and I knew he was pissed but what could I do? I didn't want the bracelets.
About 30 minutes later another vendor selling the same bracelets approached my friend and he actually bought some. I guess the vendor who first talked to me saw this and came over to try his hand again. Again I refused. But he wasn't about to take no for an answer I started to walk away and he actually followed me. He was walking right next to me getting more and more frustrated. He started swearing showing me his fist. God knows what he was saying the only thing I could understand was the swearing. I was getting very mad though just kept walking, smiled, even laughed, about 2 blocks later he stopped following me. My friends caught up and we caught a cab back to the hotel. I was fuming the entire ride back.

As to the point of a weapon I don't know if he was caring one. And I'm glad I didn't find out weather he was or wasn't. I assume anyone confronting me on the street is caring a weapon. I think it's safer to go into a confrontation that way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 1999 1:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
Van,

You ask; "Do you think you can project?"
How? What if you can"t; what do you think he punk is thinking if you cannot project?"

I believe that i have been in some situations where i have projecting readiness and confidence. By both physical poise and by calm verbal response. Yes, it has worked on occassion without esculating to the physical level. Even to the point where i was told that "you aren't nothing" as he put down his hands walking away after missing with his telegraphing hook punches.

Did i loose face in this confrontation? I felt so when i got home. Even before that point i began to feel "cowardly" for not ingaging in breaking him up for tryin to hit me. I was congradulated by people around for handling the situation as i did. Why then did i feel cowardly afterwards for not accomidating this persons desire for trouble? That aftermath feeling lingered for many days.

Ignoring someone in hopes that there comments or presence of percieved danger will go away? Yes, been there to. How does one feel afterwards? Is that the question? Humiliated, ashamed, cowardly.
Could i have beaten this person? Does it really matter?

Is it not rational to realize that the many different consequences are not worth finding out? When not given a choice to walk away, then one must do what they can do protect themselves.

To avoid physical confrontation is a wise thing to do, no matter who you are or how tough you may be.

"What do you believe the punk was thinking when he saw you ignore him and backdown?" One of two things, if you walk away "projecting" confidence and show no fear (even though it may be present) he probably is thinking that he is lucky he did not get a new ass torn. However, walking away "projecting" fear i'm sure would reinforce his belief that he is in fact that tough guy he needs to be.

Let us not forget that sometimes we just missunderstand eachother as human beings and a simple apology often defuses the agression.

No De-nile here Van, there are times that we all have backed down only to feel a bit cowardly afterwards.

What do you think?

------------------
Gary S.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 1999 5:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Paul San-
Thanks for the Indonesia story in depth.He was upset because of failing to sell you his wares.

I see it.Maybe he'd had a bad day.I am sure you did it right.

The projecting, I think, can be confidence, humour, or 'glare', depending on the situation.

Like kiai, or assuming a kamae., it should oly be done whena certain point is reached.In the case of projecting, it sould, I feel, be done as Van sensei mentions, when and if the opponentis about to close with you and you have no avenue of escape.

At this point, I feel, a little 'rattlesnake ' behavior-i.e. warning off-is not inappropriate and can often provide good results.

But if one gets to this point, obviously one may be about to have to back up the rattle with some fang.

As I said, if you can get out of the situation, one should I feel do so.

Your point about assuming everyone on the street to be carrying a weapon is a good one, and food for reflection.One may well forget this at times of extreme stress, and it is well to be reminded of this.Thank you.

Little reminder like that can save your life.

Somebody once asked a person, not a martial artist, what he would do when attacked on the street.He responded,"Depends what I can get my hands on at the time."

Also food for thought?

John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 1999 5:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Van Sensei-
Thank you!:-)

It is important that we share our experiences, inforation, hopes and problems in this arena, in an honest spirit.How otherwise are we to discover and share self-defense truths?

Paul-San(Paul Sensei?) I did not take Van Sensei's message to meant that we should turn and devastate our Provoker, but that we should find some way to so project a calm but powerful attitude that we deal with the situation without the other harming us, physically Or psychologically.

Your reaction in the Indonesia event is similar to some I have had where I laughed at a would-be attacker.It seemed to have the desired effect.

But it is an interesting story, and I also would especially like to know if you know why the individual became angry with you.

Been in many cities myself and know that some people carry a bag of anger around with them all day long, just looking for someoone to unloose it upon.:-)

John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 1999 3:06 pm 
Van Canna

You always seem to find the best topics...
As a woman, I think females find themselves in these situations probably more than men. It seems like I encounter these kind of similar situations at least once a month. Anytime I go to the mall or the bar or downtown there always seems to be some guy who thinks he has the right to try to intimidate me into either trying to buy something or spending time with him. While the majority of these people are all talk and harmless, you do have to always assume they have the worst in mind. Now on the projecting, it almost seems to work different for women, as long as I just ignore them and keep walking they might follow for a while but will eventually lose interest, but when I get home I do feel like a coward for not making any attempt to put them in their place. Now, if I do the calm, look them in the eye thing, it's like they have been issued some challange. It usually escalates the situation because they aren't going to take that from some girl and have to defend their ego in front of their buds. It usually ends in alot of name calling till they get bored and walk off. I know that puts myself at a greater personal risk, but at least I feel like I'm attempting to control the situation. What usually happens is when the first verbal contact is made, I turn around smile and laugh (still walking)like I think it's funny so they have their sense of accomplishment and I'm allowed to continue on my way without further interuption. Again, when I get home, I have to deal with that feeling of having caved in and catered to their egos. Man I HATE that feeling.

Just a thought.

------------------
Shelly


Top
  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 1999 6:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Again, when I get home, I have to deal with that feeling of having caved in and catered to their egos. Man I HATE that feeling.(Shelly)

Eating humble pie does not come very easy for most of us. Isn't this what we train ourselves for under the guise of "discipline?" If we were to really give in to our feelings everytime some miscreant mouths off at us, there would be one long trail of bodies behind every martial artist - no? Not very good publicity for our beloved martial arts.

In the immortal words of Patrick Swayze's Dalton character - "Be nice....until it's time not to be nice."

Moe Mensale


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 1999 8:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 21, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 106
Location: Andover,MA
genjumin: I don't think it was just the fact that this vendor didn't sell me anything, but more with peer pressure. You have to understand every other person on that street in Bali was trying to sell you something. They all know each other and most likely work together. He probably felt like an ass in front of his friends and felt he needed to save face by threatening me. I'm sure his found it very amusing.

When dealing with an individual, projecting an air of superiority might work since theres is no one there to back him up. But what about when that individual is apart of a group. You start projecting, and that person bothering you might feel he needs to escalate it or risk looking weak in front of his friends. Peer pressure is VERY powerful. More powerful then any glare I can project.
Humble pie tastes very good when you have all of your teeth.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 1999 8:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Paul C. says:"Humble pie tastes very good when you have all of your teeth."

I don't, but I can still savor the taste of it.:-)

JohnV.(Genjumin)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 1999 6:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
My sophmore year of college, my Aikido sensei asked me to run a class for him, since neither he nor any of the other instructors could make it.

Towards the end of class, the instructor from the local Chung Do Kwan club walked into the room, looked right at me, and said "This is our space. Get out!"

Needless to say, I was taken aback...and more than a little scared. At this point, I was a third kyu, with maybe a total of three or four years experience in the martial arts. I felt as though I was being challenged, but I wasn't sure that I could properly respond.

I politely told him that we were wrapping up class, and that we'd be out in a minute, but inside, I felt as though I would puke. While I tried to project an aura of confidence, I don't know that I entirely succeeded.

I spent the rest of the night wondering if I should have handled things differently, and if my training was really worth anything at all.

So, yes, I have had that feeling. It's one of my motivations for investigating things like this forum. While I think my skills at projecting have improved substantially since then, there's no denying that in a confrontation, it can be very difficult to summon up that kind of inner strength, especially if you've never been taught how to do so.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BREAKDOWN -PART TWO
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 1999 8:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 21
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
My general impression (as I have no street confrontation experience, being a white boy from the 'burbs), is that if you know what you're doing in a fight, only project if you intend to back it up. Yes, that may intimidate some, but, you never know who in your surroundings will back them up. Plus, you also don't really know who will or won't go totally ballistic. So don't bluff. This is a touchy issue for martial artists, because in a certain sense we're athletes who never get to play our game. We want to fight, if only to see how good we are. However, it occurred to me recently that it's rather selfish to cause another person the suffering of injury for the purpose of testing myself.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group