BREAKDOWN -PART TWO

[JOHN THURSTON]

Hello:

I thinnk the hardest thing, especially in this state, is dealing with the necessity of "backing down"-unofrtuantely because the law demands it.

When respondig\ng to Lori San's post on "what should I do" whne she was harassed, it did nto sit well.

Nonethelless, in The Commonwa\ealth Of Mass., and probably many other states as well, you may only use the force necessary to repel the attck.

How and why the law puts this burden on the defendee escapes me as a lawyer, so I can imagine how frustrating it must be for everyone.

Nonethelss, again, that's the rule.

Also, one is obliged to retreat if possible, and this does not sit well either because this is a fine judgement to have to make when the adrenalin dump is on you.

However, "in extremis" it is "better to be judged by 12 than carried by six."

Conflicts abound.

JT.

[Van Canna]

Both John T. and John V. make good points on the sensibilities of avoidance at all cost because of the potential for dire consequences!

The difficulty is in controlling the “rage rush” triggered by the primal brain that doesn’t know the super conscious brain exists!

Psychologist Dolf Zillman performed a series of experiments at the University of Alabama on the anatomy of rage! The universal trigger for anger responds well to symbolic threat to self-esteem or dignity, being treated unjustly or rudely, being insulted or demeaned!

This, in turn triggers the fight or flight response, depending on how the conscious brain sizes up the opposition, i.e., you might fight a small punk who ripped an ice cream cone from your child’s hands then spit in his face, but you will mostly take flight if the punk turns out to be an industrial sized professional wrestler psyching up for the evening bout!

Than you will need a psychiatrist to straighten you out! [Dr. Michael Knight] * smile*

I know, you would fight the wrestler too!! In your dreams!!


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Van Canna

[genjumin]

Van Sensei says:'I know, you would fight the Wrestler too!In your dreams!:-)

Not even there,if there is any way to avoid it.I can't even come up with a semi-beievable fantasy on how I would go about unarmed combat with Stone Cold Steve Austin or some such monstrosity(only kiddin', Steve:-) and not wind up at least severely injured.

Some people, nothing works on.
Some of the wrestlers look like they could take a practice clip from an M-16 and still break you and three friends before the die.If they die.:-)

I think that is an important thing to look at in this discussion.Let's talk about 'Roided up Football Players, Pro Boxers or wrestlers, or Weightlifting Ex-Cons on Crank or what have you.

What we gonna do when they come for me and you?(Don't everyone start packin' at once, now.:-)

This type of situation may be when you need to be in control of the cocktail big time.There are thngs to do to at least buy enough time to escape, perhaps, if we don't get too macho and think we can knuck it out with these guys.

Think environmental weapons-debris, furniture, metal garbage can lids, belt, handful of change,the power of key(s), mental distraction(projection may not work, here, but a little doubletalk might stop things just long enough),comb(a quick slice across the throat with a plastic comb does no harm whatever, but may make someone think you have cut his throat, and while he grabs it to stop the bleeding you can get away), and how about creative handkerchief work(use it and throw it in his face-it'll stick, then run like Hell)-the mind can be a terrible weapon, when put to use.

Beats shooting an unarmed attacker, which I understand (being a reporter) the courts tend to frown on.

Just a few thoughts and please don't ask where I got some of them(:-),

John Versteeg

[Sacco]

I'm a firm believer in the limitations of the body to absorb damage. Crush their tarsal bones, they can't walk. Tear their eyelids, they can't see. Collapse a lung with a shot to the side of the chest, they can't breathe. Pulverize a cranial nerve and they can't think.

Sacco

[Shelly King]

John brings up an excellent point concerning the influence of drugs on people. There are common street drugs that can provide average people with extreme strength, absense of pain, and violent outbursts. Let alone what they do to "bad" guys who already have a tendency toward violence. How do you handle a guy who doesn't feel pain and has the strength of 5 guys? It's bad enough when you have to assume everybody you encounter is armed but now they are wacked out on crank, too.

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Shelly

[maurice richard libby]

Shelly,

I remember a really good self-defence book I read once , (it since has been ripped off from the library, of course) which dealt with drug and alcohol numbed attackers. The interesting point they made was that, whether or not they feel pain, if their legs are stucturally damaged, they still can't get to you. It's something to think about.

I suppose that means if you destroy the knee, they can't stand, but you can run away.

Something to think about,

maurice

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
Ronin at large

[Lori]

Maurice -

Excellent point - one I've not had to use fortunately - but I pass on that very same idea in my classes...

What started me along that train of thought a few years back was a story from a policeman friend of mine who works in the roughter section of town - and heads a gang response unit as well -

One night they were pursuing a suspect out of a very nasty bar - he was on something - not sure exactly what - but he rushed the cops with a knife - (guns were drawn) and received a 9mm slug in the forehead that threw him backwards on the pavement - as the cops approached - the guy actually GOT UP FROM THE GROUND WITH THE BULLET STICKING OUT OF HIS FOREHEAD and rushed the cops again.

Very hard to believe - maybe he had a plate in his head I don't know.

But it made me think extra hard about defending oneself agains someone "under the influence..."

Peace,
Lori

[genjumin]

Sacco san, Shelly, Maurice and Lori san -senseis all have good points.

I believe it is a harder thing to structurally destroy a large, powerful, pain-insensitive and drugged out hoodlum than we would like to admit.

Add to this the adrenalin dump, you have a hard situation on your hands/feet.

Breaking a leg is not so easy as it is sometimes taught, so I don't try to break.I kick a leg out from the inside, and buckle them, or kick the side inward to collapse the leg without breaking, or the back knee forward to bring them down with a pull, into whatever I've got waiting for them.

But if you have a maddened Steroid monster on crank and you take him down, he may grab you and take you down, too.Here we get into the realm of grappling, which with one of these guys, I prefer to avoid.And I'm not small.

So suppose you break a leg or two, and monster doesn't feel it, grabs you with arms as he goes down, and makes you one with the pavement.

Here's where I'm for admitting one's own limitations in order to find some way around them.

Sacco san says crush and destroy attacker.Well, what if you find out too late, that you can't?

I have met three hundred plus pound, seventeen year old,Point insensitive, double jointed, black belts in Dillan style Karate.Nothing worked on them but evasion and unbalancing, throwing with their own momentum, and running away.

Not very dignified I'll grant you and they were absolutely unharmed(it was in the Dojo), but what would you do if one such went bad and attacked you?

I'm for getting out of the way and getting out of the area,then worrying about macho stuff later when home watching kung fu movies.

If monster charges and you miss the leg break, what have you got to follow up with when they smash into you, grab both your legs and turn you upside down, thus changing your perspective?

When your legs are taken out and you go down backwards, your arms will automatically flail out to your rear to catch you and break your fall.

I showed an Aikido shdan this one time a Judo waza called Morote Gari, Two Hand Reap(Doble Leg Take Down).He said he could brea my neck or throw me by it if I tried.We were on a nice lawn, so I said go ahead and try.I knew what his arms would do.

I hit, his arms went back and he did breakfall to the rear, clean fall but he had not even tried to touch my neck.

My advice to everone wanting to know what they could do to such an attacker is to get a grappler, or a blue suit guy, onto a mat, learn to fall, and have them take you down a few times while you try to even fake a leg break.

You may get your eyes open.

Now, take same guy, and as he comes to attack do a Tai Sabaki(body turn) out of karate kata like seisan, or from Judo or Aikido, and find out how easy it is to learn to step out to an angle.Always step away from a grappling attack or tackle attempt, or back into a horse stance and hammer fist to back of neck.
Neverstep in or they will have you for all three meals, breakfast, lunch and Dinner.


Now push him off balance and run like Heck.

In about an hour you can get the hang of this pretty well.When you can do this every time, then learn some counters from your off angle position.Then un Like Heck.:-)

Regards to all,
John

[Van Canna]

John V.,

Right on target with your riposte! You are the most reality base contributor to come along on this site!

Remember, and this applies to everyone, this is your forum, feel free to initiate as many topics as you can think of [ John I look to you as a leader in this ] I can promise you that you will be treated with respect, and that any offensive or flaming behavior will be quickly dealt with, by deletion without warning!

Peace,

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Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 09-02-99).]

[genjumin]

Van Sensei-
Thank you for your overwhelming support, Sir!

I shall try to be worthy of what you have said.

I shall also, despite possible upcoming time limitations, attempt to participate and start new threads as you request.

I shall start one tonight, I think, perhaps on realistic self-defense techniques that will or should work, as a spinoff from the comments on this thread.

Again I thank you for your encouragement.

John Versteeg.

[maurice richard libby]

Just to clarify a bit, my point was that if someone is insensitive to pain, you have do do something that doesn't rely on pain.

Specific to my example, I actually don't think that breaking a leg would be useful--it is the pain that keeps you off the broken leg, not structural damage--just look at footballers, and hockey players who play on broken limbs. On the other hand, if you damage the structure enough--say dislocate the knee or something like that, so that it is impossible to stand on it--pain is irrelevant. Think of the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the knight keeps coming even after all his limbs have been removed.

Whether or not it is easy to do this is another question--fine motor skills and all.

Whne it comes to a 200lb 17 year old steroid taking, crack-smoking, point-insensitive TKD black belt--well, when it comes down to it you';re going to have to do something--run, fight, die, curl up on the ground and whimper, so you're better off at least thinking about what should work in a specific situation. And I mean thinking realistically.

I have to believe that Van's warning tales aren't intended to make us just give up on defending ourselves in those situations he brings up. "Oh, I'm not prepared to deal with 'Stone Cold', I guess I'll just give up and die right here and now."

You have to look at the examples and say, "What would work here?" But from a foundation of knowledge--knowledge of anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, psychology, etc, etc. Not from what seemd to work for Chick Norris on last week's episode of Walker.

I hope this makes sense.

God, I love this forum!

later,

maurice

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
Ronin at large

[genjumin]

Maurice san-
Couldn't agree more.Come to my brand new thread if you haven't already and share knowledge and experience, wisdom about what to do when Stone Cold Steve or Goldberg will Not be mollified or distracted, and nothing to do but root, hog or die!:-)

Come share with all of us how you think a person can successfully "throw down" in such difficult but unfortunately all-too-possible circumstances.

Specifically, when caught all but completely off-guard at close quarters and without a weapon.

Let's all have some fun, and learn things, too!:-)

John

[JOHN THURSTON]

Hello:

I wished to strengthen my point by a bit of clarification.

If faced with an "in extremis" position, I do not advocate "avoidance at all costs" even though the State will legislate towards this latter policy to the extent that we let them do so.

If there is no doubt in your mind that your are threatened FOR REAL "do what you must".

I know lots of good lawyers.

The "State" (here anyway) will never, it is my impression, allow this train of thought to be fostered.

However, if you are not actually physically threatened, -----well you know the rest.

I advise everyone to maintain a CCW permit if possible, because if it comes time to get one as you have been threatened, or such like, the wait to get a permit may be deleterious to your health.

Nonetheless, I have to give everyone what I percieve as correct advice as to the state of the law------even if it doesn't sit right with me personally.

JT



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[Van Canna]

Van Sensei:
You quote Al Siebert:'People are finding that their survival depends on their breaking away from the old ways of thiking and functioning that are no longer useful.

If only the world at large would do this, war would be a thing of the past.

I mean, individuals and societies are in the same boat, in a sense:Any conflict on a personal or societal level can well escalate to a degree where it is not only unacceptable losses we face, but unthinkable losses.

We really do have to restrain ourselves and somehow learn to not feel shame about it afterwards.

Some or all of them die, some or all of us die, or are crippled or vegified for life-for what? An insult that we walked or ran away from?"

Now if it's something that is going to happen every day, and you know it, measures must be taken, within the framework of the law if necessary(make a report) or within the framework of wisdom if possible(stay away from those areas/people) .

If you are already armed whether with unarmed or armed skills, and ready to use them, try like everything to avoid having to.

Consequences can be very heavy.
Is what I think.

Respectfully, John Versteeg