Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:28 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 1999 6:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Greetings to all.I am by reqest of Van Canna Sensei going to start a new thread and I hope that as many men and women will contribute to it as possible.

Subject is 'Real stuff that will work when it has to', meaning self-defense techniques, tactics or strategies-no limits here-that you can actually do in a for real situation, when there is no other way to get away, no way to de-escalate,and no place to hide, run or draw a knife or gun.

I want to hear strategies and tactics, plans and techniques for what you (any of you) would really do when caught with your guard down, worst case scenarios.

No macho stuff only you or you:-) think you could make work,I would like to hear very realistic ways of defense and survival in dangerous situations.

I particularly would invite also women sensei and practitioners to join in this one, as the techniques should work on bigger, stronger, meaner attackers, but everyone is invited to throw in on this one.

What do you do if you're working late, in the office, and suddnly the atttack comes, with just enough warning for you to make ONE MOVE?

What would it really be?What should it be?Question your training,now, and maybe when it really happens you'll have the answer.

I'll start off, in the next post.

John Versteeg


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 1999 7:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
I'm gonna start this off by attempting to answer my own question.

So I'm working late at the station(I'm a Radio News Anchor, when I don't work as a Janitor:-), and it's past midnight and I'm not paying any attention so I don't hear the door open downstairs.

Off I go to the Coffee Room(did I mention it was past midnight) as a burglar comes into the office, unaware that I'm there, and the condition is mutual.

As I head back to the recording studio, I pass thru the office, surprising the malefactor in the act of ransacking the place.He has his arms full, throws the stuff at me, knocking the coffee out of my hands(Darn! Sure could have used that hot coffee) and without a single break in his movement charges me, knocking me back into the wall, off which I bounce, right back into the attacker who is trying to punch me severely about the head and shouders.Elapsed time less than one second since he threw stuff at me.

Adrenalin Dump!"Yaaaaaa!" I scream quietly(not a kiai, just a 'quiet scream of horror' as Raymond Chandler, creator of the immortal Philip Marlwe, so aptly put it-quiet because my throat is tightened up) and my hands go up in 'startle reflex' as though to protect myself from a thrown basketball(similar to the opening posision of sanchin but palms out-natural human defense move.

The arms get hit by a couple of punches, (defense wounds) as I move forward into the guy.My training at this point should be kicking in-because I train for this type of situation by making these exact moves!

I let the momentum carry me into his range and nw I am inside his arms , one foot to six inches from him, and he is about to be in trouble If Ican just do the next moves right.

From the startle position I start throwing anything I can, straight in-fists, open palms, knife hands, whatever I can manage from close in to the sides of his body or face or both.Maybe six shots or so,to make him stop hitting me and start worrying about what is happening to him, and to make him move back from me so I can get loose to an angle.

He moves back a foot in surprise and I exhale if I haven't done so yet, maybe with a kiai.Adrenalin is dumping so it should sound real good!

My back is against the wall so I sidestep as he comes at me again-this time my breathing is my own,my hands still up in the 'Don't Hit Me defense posture which still looks suspiciously like a White Crane opening move in their kata San Zhaan(or San Chin), and I'm at a ninety degree angle so he has to turn to face me.

As he does I step out with my left foot to my front, leaving me at a forty-five degree angle to the malefactor,who is now wide open and hasn't yet figured out that I've moved, 'cause now he's got the jitters.He punches and I intercept with a two part pass and check, both hands are on the outside of his arm.Oh-oh!

One or both of my hands shoots up alongside his head, about at the forehead or temple, and smacks him a good one to keep his attention on the pain, as I step into him,control his wrist, lock his elbow, and with his elbow aimed at his shoulder and his shoulder aimed at his ear,(he won't be able to hit or kick-the move is called fukaku den and is from Aikijutsu's first waza, ippon-dori) take aboutthree steps towards the nearest wall and let him become one with the wall.Several times.
You get this lock, anyone goes with it.

After he calms down, I will sweep his leg out(easily done, he will be on tiptoe)and as he goes down backwards I will either stomp on him if he tries to renew attack, lock him with a finishing lock or run out of the room, down the stairs or out the door to get the Police.

Then the perpetrator will try to sue me for using excessive force.And may win, but I'd still be alive, and so would he.
Better to be tried by twelve, and all.

Video would however not show trained martial artist, but a scared person with hands up saying 'don't hit me' with body language.When you bounce them into the wall, have a look of terror in your face.It will probably be there, so you won't have to fake it.As for the finishing stomp to the ribs or the groin, so you won't be followed, drop the malefactor between you and the door, and as you run away, run right over the top of him, concentrating on heel placement, with that look of terror still on your face.Couple times ought to do it.:-)

Best I could do on short notice.

Have a go at it , Ladies and Gentlemen, will you?

The training I do for this is based on this type of scenario.A drill called Eight Hands, taken from essential kata movements, can turn that startle reflex into something else entirely.Looking suspiciously(to a Martial artist) like maneuvers vaguely familiar, somehow...:-)

Maneuvers that enable you to get to a forty-five degree angle to an attacker and control the situation enoug to get loose if you're trapped between him and a wall.Notice we didn't kick or go for the knee or groin, expected tactics that can weaken your own balance..

We did something, as Monty Python would say, 'Completely Different', using natural reflexes augmented wth a little reality-based training that can be learned in about six weeks and mastered in a year.By non-martial artists, that is.

Martial artists just have to change the way they think, a bit.They already have all the techniques, just need to adjust for situation, adrenalin dump, surprise, and little to no control for about two to three seconds.

John Versteeg


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 1999 9:27 pm 
Wow John that's a toughy.

It is something I have thought about though...One night a week I do work late at our plant, I am usually the only one in the administration building that late at night. Our industrial park isn't located in the best of neighborhoods either and we have had some problems before. To be honest, I don't have a clue what I would do. I always have my trusty 6-in engineering scale with me which could make a pretty nice weapon and I have memorized where every fire alarm pull is. There is one in every section of the building so I'm pretty sure I could get to one. That automatically sends our in-house fire squad to any area within one minute. Right now I don't have any real MA skills to use other than a few defensive moves to get out of holds, but I don't intend to let whoever get that close. So needless to say, I'm kind of at a loss here. About the only really practical thing I can do, is remain calm so I could think. However, I never walk across a parking lot without having my key tucked between my fingers like a shoken.

------------------
Shelly


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 1999 9:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 123
Ok lemme give you a few examples of some techniques that HAVE worked for me in the past.

1) Man punches and I coiled his wrist with one hand and clamp/push his elbow with the other. Next I use circluar stepping motion and forward pressure on the elbow to guide his head into the corner of a locker. (brutality is something I hate but some times appears)

2)Given enough distance, one of the best ways I have found to end an altercation is to feint a punch to the head while you are delivering a side kick to the knee. This is preached in just about every martial art and is a truly golden technique. Buys you plenty of time for runnning or finishing techniques.

3)Here's a good rule, if you control the head/neck you control the fight. If someone is moving at you or you are already in a tangle with them, circle to the back of them and go for the reverse headlock. Again, this is VERY common, but there is a reason for that, it works! Be sure you execute the technique properly for it to work though. You should drop your weight and lean back, which will cause your assailant to lean back into you causing 100% reliability on you for balance (his neck can never be as strong as your entire upper body and body weight combined). Also, to effectively seal his breath, you need to use opposing forces to your advantage. Pull your forearm towards your head (whilst it lies accross his larynx) and push forward on the occipitol plate of his cranium with your other hand.

I have been in enough situations to know what works for me while under the influence of adrenaline. I suspect these would work for others as they are pretty natural techniques, but I certainly can't say so with any certainty.

Also, as you may have noticed, I didn't include any counter punches in those techniques. I HATE bare knuckle puching. In my experience I have learned that it hardly works. Have you ever seen two guy wildly
flail haymakers back and forth? In the midst of battle its suprising what kind of punishment a person can take and I am certainly not going to rely on the hope that I can stop a bull of a man by causing "pain" with punches.

In a fight, punches will only work if the person gets knocked out or if he decides that he needs to step back a get away from the pain. Personally I don't want to give him a choice at all. When I through a technique, I want it to be nearly impossible to not comply. The atlas and cervical vertebrae, sternocleidomastoid, and other connective tissues that form the pivoting point for the head are very weak. A midly powerful palm heel strike to the chin will cause a man's head to rip backwards in a whiplash-like motion, forcing his body to destablaize a bit. It is much more likely that an attacker will comply with a technique like that than with a punch to the forehead.

I'm done,

-Collin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 12:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Shelly-
Thanks for your honest and thoughtful reply and your participation.

It's obvious you have given some thought to what to do in case of,

Personally, I believe an ounce of planning is worth a ton of skill.

The fire pulls, the engineering scale, and the shoken key are all very good thngs to keep in mind. The shoken key in particular is something I've been doing a very long time.

That alone can save your life.

Let's see if we can add a few options.

1.Footwear as weapons.If you happen to wear, as an engineer, steel toe boots, the front kick with toe can be very effective, keep it low and at the legs.
Sokuto geri can be very good with these as well.Guaranteed!

If high heels, stomps and toe kicks can both work,if tennis shoes like I wear, these are good for keeping balance in and for running away.:-)

2.Purse as a weapon.If you carry a purse, weight it with something.If you carry a wallet, consider carrying two.One a phony with a five dollar bill in it, either take the money out, throw i one way and run the other, or throw the phony wallet in the attacker's face, only if he does not have a gun out.

3.Kubotan Keychains, if legal in your state, are excellent, and can be used to attack nerves in the hands, arms, legs, body and face.Trining courses to use these usually run only a few weeks.

4.Consider Pepper gas as a possibillity, again if legal in your state.

5.And now we're gonna get nasty:Hairpins may or may not be out of fashion, but you might consider wearing one or more.
You could even pin it in your shirt, if hair is short.Back when men and women wore hats, Hatpins were often used by women to deter muggers.They reach for you, stick 'em in the hand.Bet they leave screaming.:-)

6.If you are on a project, do you wear a Hard Hat? These are great weapons!Hold it by the underside and strike with it like a frisbee in a sort of Backhat(sorry) motion.

7., if you know an attacker is coming with a knife and you have time, remove shoes or boots and put them on your hands for block and strike counters.Again, tennis shoes are not so good for this.But did I mention, they are good for running?My favorite tactic when confronted.

8.There are techniques using ropes that can defend against knife or club attacks.If no rope, a belt works fine.If a belt has a nice, heavy or sharp Buckle on it, and you swing it lke a pair of nuchakus more or less ,terrible damage can be done to multiple attackers.If no big buckle, wrap belt around fist and hit with it.

9.Everyone carries a nice ball-point pen.Maybe even wear a nerd-pack full of them.Pull the pen, tke the cap off or open it, hold it in the middle, and do karate striking techniques to attacking limbs with it.If you have two, use one in each hand.They'll run away screaming.

Anyway, Shelly, perhaps this will give you and others not yet able to single-handedly dispatch entire football teams barehanded, as those more experienced at least think they can do:-), some ideas on ho to maximize your defensive potential when the ole' chips are down.

Hope so-and let's all think about this stuff some more, 'cause if God forbid soething does occur, the time for planning your courses of action was-now.

John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 12:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
The bad guys really expect most people to be sheep (Sheeple?) as western society for the last few decades pretty much teaches victims to submit. Any inside offensive move would most likely surprise them enough to either momentarily break off the attack, giving me a chance to flee or get a weapon, or the attacker might just run off looking for easier prey.

Personally, I'd go for the attacker's throat or some pressure point around the jaw, ear, eye or back of the head. Then the legs so they could not chase me as I quickly depart.

No actual experience, but mindset and planning I've done just in case.

Rich


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 12:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Collin-San-
Good stuff, and plenty of it!:-)
Now that's the kind of stuuf we need to see.

I note your first technique is what I did in my scenario as a loc and bash technique.

Note also in my scenario that I hit the guy six times just to get him to move back off me a foot, and to stop thinking about hitting me and think about his own defense.

Note that I hit him, he hits me and neither one of us goes down,and when I want to cause pain I smack him in temple with palm or palm heel.

Kind of looks to me as if we like the same things!:-)

Thanks for sharing and if you have any more like that, put 'em up here, it could wind up saving someone's life.

About hitting with the fist.Judicious use of the shoken(one knuckle ) fist up into the rib nerves often has quite an effect.

Yet this requires full control of your faculties in an encounter, and I don't count on people I train necessarily beng able to overcome the adrenaline dump, so I teach the the gross motor strikes.

For those more experienced though...

Anyhow, like the way you think!

John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 1:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Rich -San-
Good planning.Certain strikes out of kata can be targeted right where they they'll do a lot of good.

A good 'Shotgun' tactic is an x-knifehand strike to the throat and sides of neck simultaneously.This is a potentially and designedly deadly strike, so only use in life or death situations.

For those reading Evan Sensei's forum, yes, this is one of those one shot kills from Shorin ryu.

It is well to consider using elbows and hammerfists and knfehands and riken uchi when in close combat.Learn on heavy bags how to deal punisment with these.If you use a knee, target inside of thigh.

Thanks for your contributions, Rich-San.

John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 1:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 15, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1089
Hello all,

I tried to blast through the last "Breakdown" thread and this one in a nowadays rare spare moment--please forgive if I'm reiterating something that someone's already said.

I think that it is much harder to break or dislocate a knee than is commonly discussed. Not thinking of force here, but rather angle and load bearing on the joint at the time of impact.

An element of acts of unwanted aggression that is seldom discussed is that of other people getting in the way and reducing the amount of control that you might otherwise have over a situation. People that you may love or people that you don't even know. In confined spaces this can be a real problem, especially if they are naive to the realities of violence (that takes in a bunch, no?)

Our techniques of doom are great to train. They allow us the advantage of less cognition at the moment that it hits the fan, however, as many of you suggested, they don't always work. How about the guy that gets up with a slug in his head....hate to get headbutted by that dude!

WWII Defendu CQB combat strategies and techniques were taught to kill. Period. They served the purpose primarily of increasing the troops self confidence. Most of them were never involved in hand to hand combat. Where does that leave us? What does it say about our training?

Saw a great film clip of the Aussies training. One guy is running down a sand dune, another in hot pursuit. Running man turns and powers a chin jab (bushiken) that should have rendered the pursuer spinal cord injured. It turned him a** over appetite and he got up and they went on with their training. Not uprooted him mind you, but sent him in a closeline type arc head down to the ground. He was not in a typically considered altered mental state, but he was juiced. He was training in an incredibly intense setting--conceivably for his (and his nation's) life.

This is something, and I think also perhaps holds the the answer that I'd give to the question of the thread--if you are determined that YOU not the dirt ball will be the one to go home, you will have as decent a shot at it as is possible. Obviously, all the great suggestions for unobtrusive weapons, etc. are but that much more insurance as is relentless hard training.

Consider, you are in a room with a starving five lb. rat. Who will emerge? If it can do it so can we.

Train hard and live long.

David


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 5:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
David Elkins sensei brings it home to roost.

Good post, Sir!

A very great friend of mine passed away recently, retired SSgt.Ernie Fowler, WWII Vet who was a Ranger and a Glider pilot and Paratrooper who fought from Normandy to Holland to Germany, then into the Pacific.

He was in the middle of it all the way.One day Ernie and I were at the Military Museum, and started doing some one shot strikes on some Mannequins.Ernie had been trained in the Defendu type stuff in the war,and our techniques were very close.I changed mine to his after I saw them.:-)

Ernie said what it was like in Combat, and he told me a very strange story about the Glider landing in Holland.

One of the replacements they got(Ernie was Platoon leader) on a ship going to staging area was a real bloody -talking guy , like a lot of martial artists.:-)

Said he was gonna get him a Nazi ear.Kept talking about it.When they went into battle, Ernie knew this guy was gonna fold, so he watched him close.

Gliders down and the Germans knew it,here came Stukas zeroing on their
position.Ernie had everyone dig foxholes but the german planes were incoming.

Several guys died in the first attack, one of them blown in half.The tough-talker didn't dig when he was told to, and when the dive-bombers came in , he jumped on top of Ernie!

Ernie said 'Get Out of Here! Dig your own!'The guy asked where/ And Ernie sent him to where the half a guy was.The guy came back vomiting and screaming"There's Half a Guy over there!'

Ernie said 'Well, he'd already started to dig, you would only have had to finish.'

Guy said, 'let me in your foxhole.Ernie said, you dig your own or die, it's your choice.'

About that time the germans came in on their second run, and Ernie said he never saw a guy dig a foxhole so fast in his life, a few yards away from his, or so deep.:-)

And then, Ernie said, he heard the guy start to pray to God.He said the guy prayed to be wounded shallowly across the buttocks just enough to get shipped back away from the Combat Zone so he could survive the War.

At this point I am laughing my head off, when Ernie got a strange look on his face, of puzzlement, remembering:'And you know-that thing happened.'

I stopped laughing, as Ernie told how within five minutes this guy gets one right there, just as he requested, spends the rest of the war in the Motor Pool behind front lies, and goes back on the same Ship as Ernie, who asked him, 'Did you get your ear?' At which the guy just mumbled 'Aw, that was just talk.'

Ernie was a wonderful guy, had no macho swagger or attitude about him but could still wear his Uniform and do his combat techniques at Eighty-six years of age.

A nice guy who fought for freedom and his country and did what he had to do.
It was an honor to have known him, and now you all do too, at least one story's wort, a strange tale from the middle of Hell.But a true one.

Ermie had two Purple Hearts, and some other medals, and some of the things that happened to him formed the basis of the movie 'Battleground.'

When you see the Platoon ambush the German Troops, that was Ernie's guys.

Ernie said he didn't even want to talk about anything like that for twenty years after.

I salute you, Ernie, wherever you are.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 6:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
That last may have seemed a little off-topic, but I think it goes to the core of reality self-defense.You have to keep your head or it will for sure get blown off or kicked in.

Stuff can happen when you aren't ready for it.You could be in bed, in the bathtub or the shower, you could have a gun and not be able to reach it, or reach it in time.

There has gotta be a mindset, an emergency mindset, that when or if you are attacked, it isn't a game or a competition, but life or death.

What are you gonna do?

Anyone and everyone.

John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 6:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
That last may have seemed a little off-topic, but I think it goes to the core of reality self-defense.You have to keep your head or it will for sure get blown off or kicked in.

Stuff can happen when you aren't ready for it.You could be in bed, in the bathtub or the shower, you could have a gun and not be able to reach it, or reach it in time.

There has gotta be a mindset, an emergency mindset, that when or if you are attacked, it isn't a game or a competition, but life or death.

What are you gonna do?

Anyone and everyone.

John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 12:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30207
John V.,

Bless the day you found this forum! You are such an entertainer! Don't you dare get too busy to write! *smile*

------------------
Van Canna


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 4:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 21
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
I think hard about a lot of this stuff, and am concerned a little strange for it by other members of my dojo. But my god, I feel out of my depth here. I'm training right now in Aikijujitsu, and by correspondence, in Scars. Anybody ever heard of it? Developed by a guy who spent over a year at point for Charlie company, 175th airborne in Vietnam. His stuff seems pretty good to me, but I'm still a civilian, work eight-to-five, and have never been in a real fight. Once again, out of my depth.

Sacco


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 6:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 123
My 2 Basic Rules:

1) Get behind your attacker:

I hear so many people say that it is easier said than done, but in my experience it really isn't that difficult. I like to fight in close and at that distance, parrying a blow and spinning to the back can be done very quickly. From behind strikes to the back of the knee and strikes to the back of the neck work very well regardless of the opponents size.

2) Attack stabalizing points:

We all know that you have to be selective in the places that you strike. To this end, we all study the "weak" points on the human body and target those at regular practices. However, even these "weak" points can fail you if the attacker is pumped enough. My rule is to attack those weak points that are also stabilizing points. This means strikes to the knee, ankle, head pivot, pelvic girdle and similar spots.

I would say striking these points is analagous to demolishing a building. If you scatter Symtex and C-6 thoughout the building, you are gunna have a nasty explosion, but it will probably remain standing. If you explode key structual supports, the whole damn thing will topple.

An understanding of body mechanics is crucial to firring off shots at these areas. A front kick to the pelvis might hurt, an oblique kick to the inside of the upper thigh will cause the femur to move out of place, force the leg to wheel in on itself and cause the attacker to fall. Ask yourself, what kind of strike delivered at what angle will cause the greatest contortion of each stabilizing point?

I don't claim that pain submission is ineffective. I simply feel that attacking these spots yields more consistent results.

-Collin


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group