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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 8:08 pm 
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Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Wow, this thread is really taking off!

Van Sensei, I'll try to keep writing..:-)

Sacco-San, keep up the studies, sounds all good.

Collin-San, more good stuff.Well thought out.

Dr.X-welcome to the thread.You got us hooked, come back and tell'the rest of the story.'

And what color shirts do they wear in Liverpool?

And some more of you women warriors are invited to participate, 'cause you all have given lots of thught to this topic or you wouldn't be in martial arts, now, wouldja, just like the rest of us!:-)

John


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 1999 2:20 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Subject is 'Real stuff that will work when it has to', meaning self-defense techniques, tactics or strategies-no limits here-


Strategy:
Destroy the sight, breath or mobility of anyone who threatens me. Only these three things come close to a guarantee. A punch to the head can cause a concussion but a concussed person can still kill. A person with no eyes will have a very hard time hurting you. A person with no ability to breathe has only one thought - his next breath. And if his mobility is gone, you can escape or deal with him at your leisure.

Tactics:
1. Attack. Every move has to be an attack designed to achieve one of your strategic goals. Attack hard, attack first and attack without let-up. Make him be the one to fight the defensive battle. If you have the presence of mind to have a defensive manouver that double as an attack, ok. but block then attack is only good for sparring, not fighting.

2. The problem is that the eyes that will immediately stop his attack are hard to get to and the 'iffy' leg, knee, ankle busters, tho easier to do, are less successful as a 'dead' stopper. This leaves the throat as easier to get to than the eyes and more successful than a leg buster. Of course, for breath, we only attack the throat - the solar plexus and the short ribs will only hurt untrained, low adrenalized guys that aren't wearing a coat!

Techniques:
If I'm being rushed in a 'canyon' -no chance for lateral movement like when you are in a parking lot between two cars, my Shorin-ji takes over and I'll meet the attack with a thrusting 'stop' kick, either a front kick or a side kick, driving forward. I practice and get my students to practice against the rushing charge of a very large guy to develope the stopping power. Then on to my main goals...
If I'm being seriously threatened by someone bigger, younger and stronger than me, I will open the dance with a first strike, a rising shuto to the throat.
I will also do my best to be armed when this attack happens. Shelly, you have the right idea but the keys in the fist are overrated. Hit a punching bag hard with this weapon and see what happens - if you don't get his eye, first stike, you will most likely be incapacitated. Since I seldom go anywhere without 'practicing' being armed, I usually have something in my hands all the time, or very close. Favorite non-weapons; steel rulers, paperweights made of stone or steel, pop bottles, scissors, etc, etc.

Practice:
Unless you go to the effort to condition your hands to take the force of a punch to a bony protrusion, do open hand shots only. Punching to the skull with an unconditioned hand is like smashing your hand with a hammer, then defending yourself. Open hand combos, shutos, ax hands, chin jabs, palm heel strikes etc must be trained if you need serious self defense.

The Baloon:
This training technique I give to you FREE! Hang a baloon from a pin in the ceiling at eye height and every time you pass it, do an eye strike. Draw an evil face on it and up your targeting accuracy. Next, have a partner move the ballon around the house so you come across it unexpectedly and eye strike, eye strike, chin jab, throat strike that sucker into oblivion!!

If you can't get anyone to play "Kato" for your Inspector Cleuseau, at least always pretend that he is there, especially in your yellow light zones.

The martial arts have been my life since 1972. Karate is like ballet to me, an epitome of what a human can do in a fighting (dancing) situation. But ballet is only good if you are on a stage wth the right kind of music and are an incredibly gifted athlete and then they still get hurt. 99% of most formal martal arts is like ballet, stretching our abilities to the utmost but so rarified as to be useless when the feathers hit the fan. You can't do ballet on a crowded dance floor even if it is the highest form of dance and not all martial arts techniques are designed to be practical. When it comes to life saving fighting, simple and ferocious will do more than trained and complicated. Make sure your training includes some down home boogie woogie as well as the ballet!

The other way I look at this question is: your son is going to jail for some stupid putz mistake in judgment and you have three months before sentencing - what do you teach him about fighting in jail?

I haven't posted much to this Uechi site so I guess you guys now all know at least one topic that makes me sit up and howl!! Image

------------------
The Fighting Old Man


[This message has been edited by Sochin (edited 09-04-99).]


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 1999 3:45 am 
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Sochin-
Very good stuff from the Fighting Old Man! You and I started Karate(but not martial arts) the same year, 1972.
Appreciate your clear division of material into strategy and tactics.

All your stuff is good, but I forgot to mention about how to use the key.Rake or slash the face at eye level, then jab.
And on the other end of my keyrig is a Swiss Army Huntsman outdorr survival knife, no combat folder by any means, but it has a ripsaw on it and a perpendicular awl..

Anyway, this is really good stuff on here, and if you have more, put it up!

Self defense knows no style, no rules and no art!Murphy's Law reigns supreme-thing is how do we make it work for us?

What about you are attacked in bed or in the bath, shower or bathroom, places you feel safe but are totally vulnerable?

What if your assailant turns you over on your stomach on a bed or the floor and is on top of you, and weighs much more than you do?What then?

What about being grabbed from behind in a powerful bearhug and lifted off your feet with your arms pinned to your sides?

Has everyone got their defenses tried, tested and worked out for these attacks?

What if you're ko'ed, knocked out from behind, and come to with your assailant bending down over you?What techniqueworks best when you are groggy and weak,eyes unfocussed?

What if your legs are pulled out from under you?From behind? Will you survive or eat pavement?

All these examples are taken from actual case histories of attacks.As a reporter, I get to see a lot.

Every one of these attacks was survived by the intended victim, some trained and some untrained in martial arts.

What would you do?

Strategy?Tactics?

John


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 1999 12:22 pm 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
In minor bravado incidents Legs, Head... Kyusho Dermatomes and easily workable.

In bad situations Legs to get to Eyes, Ears & Throat.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 1999 7:00 pm 
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Evan Sensei-
Thanks for contributing!:-)

Legs as gateways, eyes, head, good stuff-easily workable with a little bit of training.

Some may not be accustomed to thinking this way, but if you buckle a leg, the throat, neck, eyes, and other parts of head, such as ear, will come into reach of a mid-section level hand strike.

On another forum here, they are talking about usefulness of kicks.For me, it's all about making people unbalance in such ways that vulnerable zones come into reach.

I believe Evan Sensei is referring here in terms of Kyusho dermatomes to 'shotgun ' techniques, that work even if you don't hit a kyusho activation area(from the size of a dime to the size of a quarter and in one case a half-dollar) per se, but areas along a line(dermatome or perhaps a ch'i meridian) that are easily affected.

Such maneuvers as he has referred to can be easily taught and learned, and with sufficient practice and a changed way of thinking and looking at kata bunkai, put into action when they need to be.

This too, is an important aspect of real stuff that will work when it has to.

Seems to me that the classical martial arts make use of all tatic and all theories if we delve into them deeply enough.

So who else is out there?
And btw, J.D., they wear black shirts in Liverpool.:-) They're sailors and dockworkers and Beatles.

John


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 1999 2:51 pm 
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John San,

Correct Sir!

"Kyusho" means one second, and not always pressure points. Striking the windpipe sideways will break it causing the throat to swell and I guess you can follow what happens from there. One shot, gross motor skill, dosn't need strength, and all will respond...that's Kyusho! And this is only one!

P.S. I don't elaborate on this aspect of Kyusho so much as I am following more in the ability to end the altercation without physical damage (sometimes not possible) rather than open the door to further assault from litigation.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 1999 3:06 pm 
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Just a note, something Pantazi Sensei alluded to and I believe most martial artists are not aware of. If you fracture the thyroid cartilege (the Adam's apple), the throat will swell shut, killing the individual unless someone can do an on-scene tracheotomy in the next four to five minutes. All things considered, there may definitely be times when this is a bonus, but the law only allows killing your attacker when it is the only way to save your own life. The other approach to the throat is to strike the windpipe located just above the sternum. One good way to be accurate in this is to palm-heel the sternum and slide the hand up so the web of the thumb slams into the windpipe. Striking here cause the muscles around it to swell, making breathing difficult and uncomfortable, but not closing off the passage.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 1999 9:44 pm 
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Everyone-very interesting stuff here!

War stories-(thank you Dr.X., or J.D.-San),Rich San's Legal pointer that can save your life, if you thought you had to wait until you were almost dead to use potentially lethal force, Sacco-san's additional technique, and a good one for life and death situation close-in.

Cab a man survive being bayonetted multiple times?Can a woman lift a car off her injured son? It isn't just Urban Legend.It has been documented.

A friend of mine worked at a concrete vault company(I used to work at the place myself) and got his younger brother a job there.

Now my friend was very strong, but normally could not lift more than, say, four hundred pounds.

Yet when a vault fell on his younger brother's legs, crushing the bones,he picked the vault up off hs brother and cast it aside, suffering, himself, no strain as a result.

How is this done?Adrenalin, yes-but how is this done consciously and fully?If it can be, the self-defense at close quarters is easily accomplished.

For years, martial arts claimed to enable you to tap into this power, but it doesn't, really.We all know the stage tricks, the dynamics of breaking, and none of this enables you to quintuple your highest strength in time of emergency, or we could all do sanchin kata with half a ton on our shoulders.

So-any clues to this process, and any more stories-techniques-what have you?

John


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 1999 5:06 am 
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Sacco: The reasonable force doctrine does allow the use of potentially fatal force if you are threatened with grievous bodily harm, such as broken bones or an injury requiring a stay in the hospital.

Roy Bedard sensei covered this pretty well at camp this year. You are under no obligation to be seriously injured before resorting to the next level of force.

If Roy is reading this thread perhaps he will comment further.

Regards, Rich


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 1999 7:53 am 
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Evan Sensei gives a broader definition of Kyusho, for which thanks0this thread is getting a lot of good iformation on it we can all use!

J.D.-San(AKA Dr. X.) gives a story illustating mechanics of hysterical strength/speed/skill/rock-throwing ability.Perhaps if we imagine that bastard Vlad :-) standing in front of us, it will work for us, too.At least the principle.:-)

Somebody on another thread, also a good one, points out that we have to all to mind whatever will make us act and break the paralysis.So I'll say that's a good one, everybody has to figure out what that would be for themselves.

Once I showed a dear friend of mine,call her Kay,a video of my teacher's teacher, an Okinawan Tenth Dan, doing Kyusho jutsu techniques.He was knocking people unconscious right, left and sideways, literally, sometimes four at once and hitting so effectively it took him about a minute just to revive one guy.


Kay was horrified, though a Brown Belt in another style of karate.She said, that's awful!

I said, Okay, let me put this another way:Would you rather only know ways to kill? She still thought it was awful, which I felt did her credit as a fine human being.But I said to her Ok, Kay-
Let's look at this another way.Your Children, Your Son or Your Daughter are minding their own business and an ex-con Rapist , about six foot seven, and built like a house,attacks..I got about that far and her eyes lit with a look I hope is never turned on me, and I said, Now, what do you think?

What she thought is she had me show both her son and daughter a few techniques and has enrolled them both in martial arts classes.

That bastards Vlad had best be careful if he runs into either of them.:-)

John


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 1999 11:22 pm 
Lots of excellent ideas, and yes I do wear steel toed shoes. The shower question is interesting...I would have to reply to an attack in the shower with a two step plan: 1)hug the wall by the spout, turn off the cold water so all there is is hot and hose them down, 2) go for the razor. To the being surprised in bed question, my older sister used to love to sneak into my room at night and try to tickle me to death. As a result I am able to pick up "sneaking" noises very easily during sleep and have developed a very nasty leg hook and kick without being conscious of it until I feel contact. Drive a dump truck through my bedroom and I won't stir, tip-toe and you had better duck. Several of my college roommates, and my husband all learned the hard way...don't try to sneak past me if I'm asleep. It all comes from conditioning. My husband and I spend alot of time just wresting around on the floor. I have gotten very good at being able to slip out of just about any kind of hold. Pinching and biting, though not very classy, are my two absolute favorites. Practice and response conditioning are your best bet. If you have to stop and think what you are going to do, your attacker probably has thought about it also, and is ready for it.

Side note: I don't trust mace and pepper sprays, to easy to screw-up and spray yourself.

------------------
Shelly


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 1999 1:38 am 
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Shelley
Thanks for your thoughtfuand entertaining reply.I particularly like the hot water shower defense, it's a perfect example of a real technique that will really work.

'Psycho' would have been a different movie if Janet Leigh had hosed Norman Bates with the Hot.:-)

Steel toe shoes are great for the front snap kick with toe to inside of thigh, inside of knee, or the area known in ancient Chinese Kung Fu manuals as the Generals.I think that's how you spell it.'It is well, when attacked, to consider attacking the opponent's Generals.'Or some such.:-)

Ancient Warriors considered this a good attack.

It also appears you have thought a lot about other situations, such as the bed and grappling-floor-fighting scenarios.

Re pepper spray: There are corses on how to handle it, but you are right, you could wind up spraying yourself and this would, I feel be extremely counter-productive, so go with you gut -feeling on this one is my advice.

Also remember the value of the Hard-hat if you happen to wear one , a dozen uses come to mind.

Regards and thanks for participating,
John


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 1999 1:51 am 
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Dr. X-

Once again you've got me laughing,and I now see why some compare you to Howard Stern, in a good way.:-)

First we had the Major, then that bastard Vlad:-) and now the incisive and insightful analysis of Martial Manure De Bouef which we have all run into.

What I refer to as hysterical strength/spped/ ability is of course the function of a system thrown into desperate circumtances, and wondered how to tap into it short of an actual crisis.

Far as martial powers are concerned, you get 'em, as you said so trenchantly, from hard, smart, practice over time.

Except of course for the ones I possess.<:-)-<-|<:Those I learned from Secret Scrolls available at your local Library.<g>

Seriously, though,it's amazing how fast that supposed martial secret power vanishes when put to the ol' Test.

That you did not cold-cock the Lotos-Eater(Candy-Dancers, we used to call 'em, Har! Har!) who told you how important it was that no one could tell what foot his weight was on(probably neither) shows great self-control, a definite survival skill.

Imagine what could have been your fate had the master of the too-light-in-the- Boots Immortal Fairy Kung Fu System whirled out of the way of your razorlike Sanchin punch and kicked you, tippy-tippy-tap, with the foot his weght was not on.

How embarrasing that would have been, eh?

Anyhow, Dr., your comments are much appreciated and highly thought provoking, as well as amusing.Thank you.

John


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 1999 4:14 am 
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J.D.-san,

Good entertaining as usual! Maybe the reason why you did not punch out the lotus eater with the balancing act was because you detected the extra wide, extra long black belt he was wearing, and you did not want to miss out on the fun to see it wrapped around his casket as a heavy duty strap while his dojo mates lowered his ass into the ground! Punching him in the mouth could have spoiled your fun as he might have come to his senses!



------------------
Van Canna


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 1999 7:03 am 
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Van Sensei-There you are! Say, this thread is really getting long.If you like, we could do a part Two-takes my machine about a minute or so to get to the top to make a reply, by which time I've forgotten half the good parts.

Re punching out/not punching out Lotus Eaters.To Punch, or not to Punch?Life is a series of tough decisions.:-)

However, much as it would seem enjoyable to do so,we must allow herbivores to peacefully coexist with us.Just as in Heinleins Starship Troopers, when they showed lions and lambs in the same park with each other(don't know if this scene made it to the theatres),and someone asked the caretaker how this could be, he replied:'Every now and again, they throw in a few more lambs.':-)

So it goes.

Much regards to everyone,
John Versteeg.


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