Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:11 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 2:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29952
Here is something sobering from the famous writer and safety instructor, Jim Grover:

Now in order for this to carry more impact, please keep in mind what happened to our beloved Clarence Wilder:

The question: A snarling punk was able to cut you off and isolate you, much to your regret.
His gun is pointed at you a few feet away, your legs go numb when he spits out the words “ give me your money you f** face “

Do you comply or do you fight back? Careful with your answer! Not that easy!

Jim makes the point that most people [including martial artists-my opinion] will look for a logical A=b=c- answer, such as well give him the wallet and he will let you walk away!

A case I investigated years back involved a woman cashier in a protective cage, with its door propped open in safety violation because the air conditioning was not working!
In walks a stone cold killer with a sawed off shotgun and terrorizes her with loud profane language sending her cowering in a fetal position under a steel desk! He drags her out with animalistic stomps and hair pulling and yells “Open up the F** safe you F** C**”
She does with him behind her, and as soon as the safe door opens up, he jabs the shotgun into the back of her neck and pulls the trigger sending pieces of skull and brains and hair all over the safe!

So Jim Grover says that violent, physical attack, OR a robbery is not as logical as engineering!
But guess how many of you really believe this, especially you martial artists, fond of prearranged kumite` and the like for your Dan test!

Jim brings to the fore that the psychopathic human element plus the influence of drugs and booze will create a very unstable situation! Robberies recorded on surveillance cameras show that shooting the victim may be a total afterthought “ I shot him/her to see what it would feel like “ ___ or firearms mishandling and Sympathetic muscle tightening activating the trigger!

He goes on to say that The “afterthought” shooting is troubling because the perp started off with the intent to rob, then as he realized how easy it was and he could get away with it, he chose to shoot to kill!

He says that 100% compliance is no guarantee of getting out alive!

Think about that moment of terror after you give him the money and you just stand there immobilized by fear, your bladder about to empty, subconsciously waiting for him to give you the decision over your life or death; that PREGNANT PAUSE frozen in eternity! Will he shoot? How will you get out of this in one piece, will you turn your back and run expecting a bullet in your back? Will you start begging for your life? You tell him you are a nice man/woman who never “hurt nobody” that your kids and your wife need you at home etc.??

Does this grab your attention?? Do you want to discuss it? Bet you got all the answers, right? Right down to all your techniques you are already envisioning thinking they will magically appear out of the kata and that your body will let you do at that moment!

What do you think went through Clarence’s mind when he was faced with the punk with the gun?? What do you think will go through your head??





------------------
Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 09-03-99).]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 2:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2423
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Van:

I think paralyzing fear comes to mind.

My topic on the 37,000 muskets recovered on Gettysburg (half of which were double loaded) testifies that the fear generated by a combat situation will, in a certain percentage of cases, overcome training.

Double loading in this instance should be clarified. A soldier would have to ram a charge home, raise the rifle, fire it, not notice that it didn't actually go off, and reload. One was found with 23 charges in the barrel. This was not due to attempt to get a shotgun effect, as it simply doesn't work that way.

This from trained soldiers after 2 years of war.

This prompted tthe Gov't to slowly move towards breech loaders.

Nonetheless, you have to train, or things just get WORSE.

JT

------------------


[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 09-04-99).]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 2:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Van sensei: the first thought is ingrained - do not go to the second crime scene. The thought process of the bad guys outlined in my other post makes it clear that there will be no negotiating. If the gun goes off when I grab for it, I hope that it is pointed in a harmless direction. If not, I pray it is loaded with some small caliber jacked bullet.

My family has discussed this and has agreed on the first point. Do not go anywhere if accosted. Do not get into a trunk of a car, go into an alley, the woods...... Make noise! Scratch and claw. Run.

Yesterday, the instructor cited a stat that gives the basis for this. Over 80% of second crime scenes result in serious injury, death, rape, torture...

Resisting works. It does not assure safety or freedom from injury, but the odds are better for the victim.

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 09-03-99).]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 4:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29952
Double loaded muskets! Hmm!!

Well it proves the point that Lt. Grossman of “On killing” has tried to get across! I.e., the action of a soldier [usually non veteran—but also a vet with years of experience] in the battlefield! “When a man is frightened, he literally stops thinking with the mind of a human being [the forebrain], and begins to think with his mid brain, that is the portion of his brain that is indistinguishable from that of an animal! “ Possibly a very stupid and klutzy animal!

Now transpose the neophyte well trained soldier with the make believe well-trained martial arts “fighter” and you have the same problem!

Crusty old sergeants in discussing the psychology of combat “ Those bastards don’t know anything about it. They are like a world of virgins studying sex, and they got nothing to go on but porno movies. And it is just like sex, ‘ cause the people who really do it just don’t talk about it.”

So the study of killing or of violence in combat [you may read martial arts defensive combat much to your denial] is an intimate thing of great intensity. For the make believe fighters, like martial artists, those who have never really experienced that personal trauma, the fantasy of prevailing in violent encounters and perhaps having to kill in self defense, and the cultural traditional Oriental mythology that all of that is based upon and sold so blatantly, is as useful in understanding potential violence and killing as pornographic movies would be in trying to understand the intimacy of a sexual relationship!

References: Lt. Grossman


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 5:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Van Sensei-

Well, I'm not trying to preach a particular religious point of view here, but my best thought on what to do in this situation would be to call upon God 'cause you may be about to meet Him anyway, duck and fight.

I pray for protection every day and it's worked so far.

As far as compliance goes,I don't think so.I saw a video tape once where a robber tells a woman to come over to the side of the store he is on.She does.He tells her to turn her back.She does.He tells her to kneel.She does.he smashes her head in with a metal pipe he's been holding all along, his only weapon.

Martial arts technique?Find soething you can use as a weapon and if you can't get away, go for the eyes.It'll make 'em blink.Then go for what you can.

I got beat up about two thousand times, growing up, before I ever took martial arts.It's why I took them, I got tired of it.

You mention martial artists not knowing much about fighting.Most don't.A fight or an attack is a little piece of Hell.

If you are in a few,you know exactly, like a combat veteran knows what battle is.If you haven't , you don't.

Ultimately I've explored several avenues as mentioned.Others will come on and post specific techniques, but we both know that is not where it's at.

They told us in the military(I was a North Vietnamese Interpreter) there were no atheists in a foxhole.This is true.

There aren't even any getting ready to be in a foxhole.:-)

The truth is, there is no answer for the situation you describe, except Divine protection, luck or exceptionally fast reflexes honed by actual life and death combat.

All I have on this one.
Regards, John Versteeg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 1999 6:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 123
I have been "attempted" mugged a few times in my life. Every time I fought back. I know that there are occasions where the assailant is going to attack no matter what you give him, so I treat every occasion like that. If they ask for my wallet, I give it to them and immedeatly strike out. UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE NEVER FACED A GUN. Everytime, my assailant has been armed with a knife/chain/bat etc, never a gun to my knowledge. I really have no idea what I would do if an assailant was pointing a gun at me, egad tremor at the thought!

So far no mugger has gotten away with any of my possesions. Either I have made them regret their decission to mugg me, or have ran faster than they could. Anyway, I've got a nice scar over my hip bone from when I fought back and got stabbed. In retrospect I probably should have given those guys my wallet, I don't think now that they really had intended to do anything. I believe it was may hasty decision to attack that escalated the situation beyond what the muggers had intended.

Always learning,

-Collin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 1999 8:32 am 
The first time I lived in Charlotte, NC, I pulled into a parking lot on my bike and was accosted by someone demanding my wallet at gunpoint. I must have been in a state of shock because I let out this wicked gutteral laugh that I have never been able to replicate. The gunman ran!

------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


Top
  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 1999 2:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 317
Van,
Clarence told me, and probably told you, too, that it was the decision to fight for his life that probably saved him. I'm sure he will debate within himself for the rest of his life whether he could have, or would have, or should have, refused any level of compliance at all with the assaillant, but it sure sounds to me like he is alive now because the mugger knew he was up against a tiger. He backed off and ran away, despite the fact that he had the gun and had already shot him three times. Clarence turned the tide of the battle, having made the inward decision "I am not going to die this way". This is the heart and soul of the Uechi tiger.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 1999 1:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2423
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
What is the current consensus (other than from the Gov't) about fighting or submitting in mugging situations where a firearm is not involved?

JT

------------------


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 1999 6:43 am 
What we would all love to do. What we all train to do. There is another excellent thread that is discussing what methods people would use in real life. I have not joined in that thread because I have done a lot of training since I was last in a fight and hope I would do what I now train to do, however, it is all hypothetical.

Reviewing that thread we find very good information. Most involve movement. Avoidance, direct attack, whatever, it all includes movement and action.

Van Sensei in a discussion we had at camp you mention the HEAVINESS of legs in a life threatening situation. The inability to move your legs. The inability to act. But movement is essential. So how do we get these two together.

Paul mentions "the decision to fight for his life" as being the deciding factor. This is an important point and should not get lost. Tony Blauer says that everyone has something that they will fight to the death for. They just have to learn what it is and learn to tap into it. Once they do, they can go passed the paralysis. Tony tells the story of a young lady grabbed in Montreal and dragged into an empty lot. She is thrown down in the mud and her assailant begins to beat and rape her. All the while she is frozen and cannot fight back. And then she realizes that the coat she had scrimped and saved for six month to buy is in the mud and being ruined. She screams "You're wrecking my coat you %^&%." She begins to beat and claw at her attacker. He barely manages to escape from her. SO whatever it is, a coat, your kids waiting at home for their parent, find what you will fight to the death for and learn to call it up.

Rick


Top
  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 1999 7:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
Another interesting story from the Blauer collection

The "Boston Strangler", upon capture, turned out to be a truly terrifying character. Six foot something, strong, and an ex military man. Some one most of us would look at as an extremely difficult and dangerous opponent.

When he was finally captured, they asked him if anyone had ever escaped from him (he killed somewhere around 1-2000 people!). His answer: "Only the ones who fought back".

One woman escaped this man simply by biting his finger when he grabbed her from behind! Yet each and every person who complied with his demands was killed, contrary to whatever promises he made about leaving them unharmed.

Someone who is attempting to mug, rape or murder you has already shown that he has no respect for your life, or the laws of society. Why should we trust him to keep his word?

Blauer suggests an interesting little exercise. I can't say how much it helps, since I have not been in a fight since I've done it. Write down five things that you will lose if you die in a streetfight. Make it an emotional list...don't worry if it sounds stupid or not. Just find five things that will make you get up off the pavement when some punk is trying to put your teeth through the ground.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 1999 7:52 pm 
You guys are playing hardball now...

I think the very first question my sensei ever asked me was, "What is the most important part of self-defense?"...not self control or controlling the situation but, survival, so what if you end up in the hospital with some cuts or broken bones, as long as you survive. It really bothers me when people use the word "victim". Being a victim is a conscious decision made by an individual, not the outcome of a traumatic event. I know one woman who has been through events in her life that could destroy the strongest of indiviuals, but I would in know way classify her as a victim. I know another who became a victim solely because her neighbor's house was robbed. She barred her windows and doors, and would no longer work outside in her garden because of fear. She became a victim by choice. The quickest way I have found for determining if someone is prone to be a victim...ask them their plan for surviving a plane crash. A victim will tell you plane crashes aren't survivable. OK enough of MY soapbox...

To the question at hand...Comply until it is no longer to your advantage and never, ever allow yourself be taken to the secondary crime scene. It isn't called the "secondary crime scene" for nothing. And don't yell for help, yell fire. It is a sad statistic but it is a true one. Surviving is a joint venture between you and whoever/whatever your God is.

------------------
Shelly


Top
  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 1999 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Shelly,

excellent post. I never thought of the word 'victim' before.

thank you ...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 1999 3:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
Shelly,
Wonderful post! I couldn't agree more (all right, I admit...I wish I had written it).

"Comply until it is no longer to your advantage..."
In much of his material, Blauer talks about using submissive postures and congruous body language in order to keep your attacker unaware of the coming counterattack. By appearing to comply with the attackers demands, you create an opening for your escape.
I say appearing to comply deliberately. I don't think it is ever in our advantage to comply entirely...to do so is to give in to our attacker. On the other hand, if behaving as the attacker excepts allows us to set ourselves up for a more effective response, then by all means, we should do so.
Just some random thoughts from Syracuse...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: DARKEST INTENT
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 1999 6:08 pm 
Thank you both for your generous thoughts...

Appearing to comply is probably the only situation were women have the upper hand. I would guess that the majority of thugs in the process of mugging a man expects them, on some level, to resist; so they are probably watching them more closely. Take the same thug and have him mug a woman and he would probably be more off-gaurd and less concerned about any little movements she might make. That also applies, in my opinion, to the legal consequences that may follow. Society will most always second guess a man's use of force against an attacker, but is considerably more lenient if the intended "victim" is a woman.

Just a thought...

------------------
Shelly


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group