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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 1999 11:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Thurston Sensei et. al.-Toe Kick extremely effective and dangerous technique.Maindtay kick in Matsubayashi ryu Shorin as well as in Uechi, White crane, and also done in T'ai Chi.

One must indeed take care in practice, for two obvious reasons.If not yet conditioned, crunch! and if hit many a point or area on partner, can be devastating.

A specialized but extremely useful technique like the varieties of Boshiken used by nearly every Okinawan and most Chinese styles, and , well, what can you say about the shoken or ipponken?Like a Swiss Army knife, it has a myriad uses.

Attention should also be paid, IMO, to the heel's use in actual combat , and the palm heel as well, and to the hraken or secnd knuckle joints in a row fist which seems made for the rib breast join area, and has everyone noticed where the wrist just hits a jaw going upward at the precise needed angle?

John


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 1999 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
John San et al.,

I was doing a seminar with two friends(several Uechi-Ka's in attendance) and demonstrated a Bunkai I got from Sanseiru's double thrust as you sink into a low stance. This was done from a "guillotine" (front naked choke) that accessed the point you mentioned in the Toe Kick.

The point is a very serious point and especially with a kick can lead to complications. The point is Spleen 11 a location tying into the Femorral nerve and laying just over an easily accessable portion of the Femorral artery. I just ligthly tapped it with bushiken and one other point on the knee (the Uke squezed my head into a 3rd point...thank you very much)and the Uke went out! I can't imagine a kick there! Rose Sensei you where there any comment or additional input?

This was simple, a one motion...simple gross motor move that has become second nature with alot of practice and visualization in Kata (comes into play alot in grappling, but caution must be used or knee damage is also possible and probable).

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Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 1999 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Pardon the double post but I'm trying something new...please check www.erols.com/kyusho/points.htm for a visual explaination of my prior post.

Almost forgot it will take me a couple of days to catch an Uke film it and post it please bear with me!

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Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho




[This message has been edited by Evan Pantazi (edited 09-13-99).]


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 1999 5:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Evan Sensei-Like your new 'point Du Jour':-) Format.Yes, the toe into speen eleven is certainly no joke.Or Boshiken, or what have you.One wonders what damage could be done with the dread steel toe engineer's special:-)(you listening, Shelly-San?), especially to the underlying femoral artery.

A Martial arts student of my acquaintance who is a surgeon said there is an area also there called Hunter's Cavern of some such and said a sharp strike there could have very dre and far-reaching effects.

There are also a great number of veins, nerves and so on clustered thereabouts.

Once at a seminar I was giving, I beieve entitled 'Cool Stuff 'But the Martial Arts', a participant asked me about the dreaded guard position of Brazilian Jujitsu.Also used in Judo, of course.

So I told him to get me in it, and when he was 'locked on,' I pinched both spleeen eleven points simultaneously.

He went,"Yah!" and let loose fast, rolling out of the way.Good points.Easy to reach, no muss, no fuss, and hours of enjoyment can be had by the entire family.:-)

John


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 1999 7:52 pm 
Yes John, I'm listening. I actually got to learn first hand this last Saturday the effect of a well placed toe kick. During my first test on Saturday, my sensei arranged for me to demonstrate arm and leg conditioning with one of the senior females from his class. Kay (Nidan) switched to toe kicks on the inside of my leg about half way through. She didn't change the speed or strength of the kick, just added the toe. I am now sporting a rather large and ugly bruise and a new determination to work on my toes alot more.

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Shelly


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 3:01 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2424
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Hi Evan!!

Hi Shelly!!

Good thread.


The Tai Ji form has toe kicks, heel kicks and crescent kicks. I have a great deal of trouble with these as the balance points are different than in "our" forms.

Still, as practiced, to use them "quickly" and without much warmup is possible---like Uechi---unless, as in the form, you are trying to do them balanced one one foot in slow mo.

Clonk. The sound of me falling over.

JT


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 4:10 am 
Hi JT

Balance and slow motion kicks, you think YOU have problems...I can't even pass the roadside sobriety test...sober.

Anyway, I think we have all drifted a bit to far from the original reason for this post. So, hopefully with Van Canna's and (who even started this post?) John's (I think) permission, I wish to introduce a new "threat". Let's say you are in a convenience store when an armed robber enters. Of course, we have all seen on the news how the cops show up and the whole thing escalates into a hostage situation. It is know longer just you and the thug, but also other innocent shoppers. What do you do: hope for the best or try to control the situation?

Any takers?

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Shelly


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 7:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Shelly:
Bad luck about the bruise.Now as to your scenario:Once the armed robber is in the store would be the time for someone to fight.If it's already a hstage stuation and if you are one of the hostages, it's just about too late.

'Less you wanna try to catch robber off guard while police are talking to him.
I hope I'm never in that situation.If opportunity for escape exists(without getting shot, preferably) that might be good.If robber only armed with knife and you happen to be lying near the Baseball Bat Counter, that could work.:-)

Or if you're in the wal-Mart and trained in firearms and happen to be in the Sporting Goods Section when they come in, may I reccommend the Twelve Gauge Pump Gun, Remington or Ithaca if possible?

Personally at this point I'm probably gonna be executing the PLH (Pray Like Hell) technique,because if you're covered by a drawn weapon and there is a possibillity or probability that you aren't going to get shot-this might work as good as anythng.

Hostage situations usually have people on the floor which if SWAT is outside is the best place to be.If things light up, there you are in the free-fire zone.

What techniques are you going to use then.Hiding is good, keep low is good.

If it looks like you are gonna be shot, throw something and duck, roll or fight.Might as well go out fighting.

If it looks like some stuid jerks got caught and a situation develops, maybe they can be 'talked down.'These guys are usually not mental giants.That can be good or bad, deending-but Van Sensei knows better about this type of situation than I do, as a reporter I get there usually after the shooting is over, if any.

Takes practice and timing to do that.

John


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30074
The experts in such matters point out that the armed robber’s objective is usually different than when assaulting in the street or home! His objective is to get the money and to quickly get out!

In the few exceptions when the focus shifts on the people, such as kidnapping, shooting, tying up and or hostage taking, then you will need to react concentrating on escape!

Absent the personal focus, it is not recommended to intervene by pulling a gun of your own lest you trigger a carnage!

Post shooting you will be judged by the reasonable and prudent person standard, and by the reasonable appearances standard, and you may well find yourself portrayed as a provoker of lethal confrontation!

There will be lawsuits for wrongful death against you if your actions should result in a shootout where some patron or even the storeowner gets killed in the crossfire!
Your criminal and civil legal defense expenses will run well over a one hundred thousand dollars, not counting the nightmares for you and your family! Even the injured robber or his estate, should he die in the shootout, will sue you!!

Intervening: make it the last resort action!


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: REAL STUFF ~ [PART TWO]
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 1999 8:40 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Van Sensei-
Thank you for your real advice on hostage situations.I really didn't know what to say when Shelly pulled that one out of her hard hat:-).

Thought maybe I was being a wuss when I said maybe to not interfere and to try to escape but it was all I could think of to say!

You have as usual put the whole thing into perspective.Lawsuits, carnage and needless death plus the fact that the robber wants to 'take the money and run'have I am sure given us all a realistic idea of how to and how not to behave in such a situation if God forbid it should ever happen.Thank you, again-appreciate it!

Who wants to set the 'Next' scenario? That last one wore me out!:-)

John Versteeg.


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