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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 1999 1:21 am 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Well Hello:

I understand that a little side input from the 'dark side' is probably going to be just about as welcome as a talking cat at a Dog Show, nonetheless, I think some notes from the "American Martial Art" are marginally relevant to the "Real Power" topic.

For the Polically correct I will use "DSA" as an acronym for "man" or a "deer sized animal".

Noted, not politically correct.

Notes from the Dark Side for tonite indicate that one does not, in fact "hunt" a DSA with a pistol caliber, save, perhaps for the .44 Magnum, which, if I may say so, is an overpowering brute in "one hand", but actually fairly anemic in two.(meaning as a rifle caliber)

Well, have DSA's been dispatched to the nether world with same---oh yes.

Placement gets importanter as the caliber gets smallerer.

A .22 vs a DSA----better be real careful about placement. Eye socket only maybe.

Sure would discourage attacks----unless you're a Moro.

Racist? No-historical fact. When faced with the Moro portion of the Phillipine insurrection, the US Army astutely determined that their newly adopted .38's were not adequate for a DSA in Moro's clothing, who might also be expected to be somewhat ---what's the word--oh yeah--"High".

Enter the 1911 and the 1917 in .45. Van's Favorite, and a good one.


Barnes said, "there's nothing more boring than an inaccurate rifle".


Robert Ruark said, "Use Enough Gun".

I hope I am not coming across poorly here to oversimplify by saying----better chose well and train carefully, with pistol (sorry, technically allowed on DSA's, but not ---'enough gun'-unless perhaps a bit of stealh is required-another issue)
or rifle, feet hands, whatever.


Placement is still important regardless of your choice. If one has seen a DSA run 200-800 yds after swallowing a half foot ton of misplaced energy, and or followed a blood trail at night over leaves in the rain, one remembers that placement is a bit critical.

(I really hated that part)

Sorry to be so graphic and "un-PC".

JT


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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 09-18-99).]

[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 09-18-99).]

[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 09-18-99).]

[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 09-18-99).]


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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 1999 1:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Location: Richmond, VA
JT: My instructor at the Threat Management couse discussed that topic on Thursday. Even with proper placement, you can expect a felon who picked on the wrong prey to live for 5 to 10 seconds even with a well placed shot from a .38 . The time goes up as the calibur goes down, to minutes in the case of a .22 or .25acp. With a bigger load, 45acp perhaps, the time goes down.

Using the 7 yard rule as the typical distance that can be covered in 1.5 seconds by an average person, if that person has forward momentum and an edged weapon, even one well placed shot will still give that person time to get to you and inflict 'grievous harm' before succumbing.

So, in addition to quality placement, quantity is a very important factor in stopping an attacker.

Practice, practice, practice..........

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 09-18-99).]


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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 1999 3:08 am 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Rich San:

Post and Riposte.]


The parallels seem clear. I wonder what other voices will have ot say.

Note:

A famous African h(h-word ending in hunter) dispatched many many ESA (Elephant z\sized animal) with the (illegal now for that purpose) 7X57.

His name; "Karamojo" Bell. Minimun caliber for African ESA (dangerous) is either .375 or .458 depending.


Make mine "double tap/triple tap".??

BEST

JT

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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 09-18-99).]


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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 1999 4:12 am 
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Make it a "mozambique"

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Van Canna


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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 1999 4:22 am 
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Mozambique?

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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 1999 5:36 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Another stat related to this thread from my Threat Management course - In many high stress situations, a police officer involved in a shooting empties his revolver or pistol into the attacker. Brutality? No, the attacker kept coming.

The way my instuctor explains it, the large percentage of potential muggers will 'remember urgent business elsewhere' when confronted with a gun. Of the percentage that attack, most will break it off or go to the ground after one hit because it hurts and they do not want to be shot again. Then there is the small percentage that must be taken to the ground, as they do not respond to the hit or pain as most people do. So, he says, shoot to stop, and shoot as often as it requires to do so.

Van: This is an interesting course so far. I'm glad that I am taking it.

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 09-19-99).]


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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 1999 1:30 pm 
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Mozambique...two center mass, one to the head!

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Van Canna


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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 1999 6:17 pm 
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Location: Marlboro,MA US
Placement with a handgun is paramount as we all know. Sometimes (I imagine) placement is not a choice, we shoot at center of mass.
The analogy to the power thread is the same. If we have a choice we would hit high return soft targets such as the throat, neck , eye etc.. Sometimes you don't have the oppurtunity and have to work with what you have to create the oppurtunity. What does this mean? That when you have to blast him with a punch to, of all things, his hip, because he has a hand full your hair and your snuggled in close to him to keep his punches off, you had best have something behind that punch besides a fistful of chi.... Oyama used to have students fetch rocks from streams. These he would attempt to break (being successful more than not). Is that enough power? If all you have is a .22 then you better spend lots of time and ammo practicing moving and shooting... If you are shooting a .454 Casull well, you have lots more options...

"Movement is king, but power rules" when it is all said and done, you are in the right position at the right time, you have moved right and identified your target of oppurtunity, when you slap him in the neck or strike to ribs, you had best now have the power...


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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 1999 6:51 pm 
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T. Rose Sensei:

This was the parallel to the power topic I wanted to bring out.


A "rifle guy" tries to, I suppose "tailor" his----weapon or load, frankly, to the assigned task, but this is not the "practical" side of things.

I see advertisements of individuals using the .50 BMG to hunt DSA out to 900 yards, and this offends my sense of----well---proportion?

Since I am already a Major League Politically Incorrect type, I am not sure that anyone will really understand this.

Surely, in the self defense realm it is better, as you noted, it is better to be a bit overgunned , especially if in a constant threat situation.

I opt for the PPK/S for other reasons, and hope that I do not pay for being undergunned.
JT

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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 1999 9:24 pm 
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Location: Marlboro,MA US
Most of the time I will be carrying the bodyguard.... not the big guy ...

later


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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 1999 1:26 am 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Tracy San:

I would like to here of your choices for "body guard" and "big guy" when you get a chance.

I have a feeling you've discussed them before, and I just missed it.

JT

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 Post subject: Placement vs. Accuracy
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 1999 5:53 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2431
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Sorry, missed that reference to the "triple tap".

Van Sensei; you're a member of OCSA, I confess I am not completely comfortable practiicng much there, because of their announced and post policy over " of rounds in the weapon, so I end up driving to Monument Beach.

Any ideas on how to practice such items as "mozambique" their, without causing a problem.

Having another range to hand is one way, I understand.

JT

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