Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:56 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 1999 10:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
Sensei Canna,

With all respect, it is my understanding that there are many advocates of "Power" being the uttmost of importance in karate trainning. I know that you also feel very strongly regarding the development of power as we had discussed it once before.

Although i can appreciate the need to develope "striking power" along with the ability to block, grab and control ones opponent, i also see the reality that many of smaller size cannot and will not be able to "equal" that of many others. Therefore leaving one at odds that would most likely leave them defeated.

I feel the development of "technique" along with hitting certain target areas which do not require such "mass hitting power" such as pressure points in the neck and head area will give the smaller weaker person a chance at surviving a physical confrontation whereas if they believe that "power" is the only way to win, they loose.

I do respect the need for one's development of "power" as i continue to
be strong in my own practice. However, i also acknowledge the "limitations" of my own strength along with others who lack the ability to generate the hitting power of people of more "mass size and strength".

Many say that size and strength don't matter. In some cases that may be so but in general, how many 150lb to 180lb people have the hitting power to put down an opponent of say 220lb plus ? Inside wauki block taking out his shoulder or even stopping the punch ?
A weight lifter, althlete, football player, wrestler etc. etc.?

For one of some solid size and mass hitting power, it is easier said that
this is the primary area of focus but for the smaller individuals who cannot match that, they must know other means.

A 22.cal. pistol although it can kill you, does not have the same stopping power of a 357. or a 44.magnum. A shotgun with a dear slug will put you down, does that compare to a small gauge bullet that may simply pass through ?

Having had rescent discussion on this subject i thought it might make good for opinions and topic.

Yes, there are some very powereful smaller people but they are acceptions.
Just as all baseball players are not Jerry Maguires, nor basketball players all Larry Birds nor all boxers Mike Tysons.

Although we should strive to develope power i feel we should acknowledge our limitations and look deep into some other aspects of our trainning as well.


It also appears as though when people focus on only power in their kata's it takes away the form in that the hardness and rigidness appears to be dominating. Of course being to soft and fast goes the other way in that it tends to develope sloppy and weak forms.






------------------
Gary S.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 2:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30025
Okinawan masters, such as Nakahodo sensei et-al, although small in stature, pack the power of heavyweights! Taro Tanaka and Moto Yamakura, [Japanese Goju] although only five feet two inches, were such ferocious pit bulls you would not want to get near them! Taro fought Joe Lewis at the All American championships at the Madison Square Garden and almost won!

Mark Breslford went on record on this forum indicating that the Okinawan masters believe in hitting pressure points or certain weak points with maximum destructive force! Nakahodo sensei showed me at summer camp one year his approach to this question! Evan Pantazi sensei will admit that in the fight one will strike at full power at the pressure points!

Robb has told us of Master Shinjio one day peeking upon Peter Kellogg’s practice and asking if he really wanted to learn the secrets of karate and then proceeded to show him seizing, controlling and take downs, in addition to hitting, if I understand correctly!

Basically our forms are made up of pushing and pulling movements; the wauke blocks are pushing and pulling movements, but most practitioners I see, are powerful in the push but very weak in the pull!

The people who do not believe in the principle of the pull, control, seize and redirect and or unbalance to set up the opponent for follow up strikes are the ones who have never come up against a worthy opponent who will kick and otherwise hurt and stun the crap out of them with each blow making them feel helpless! The only way to survive that mean fight is to tie them up, swirl and spin them and catapult them into solid objects, walls or passing cars at the same time or as a follow up to full power strikes to pressure points if you can find them under the stress of the moment or if the enraged adrenalized foe will feel them at all! People who argue against this have only been in some face-slapping contest with some low level punk or never been in real fights with mean determined opponents or they would not be talking this way! Bob Bethoney and Art Rabesa senseis laugh at theses arguments; they are great fighters having fought the toughest in full contact matches!

Tracy Rose sensei believes that you should train as if the whole body were a huge pressure point and destroy it with maximum power blows, like chopping down a tree; and if he hits you anywhere in the body, you are going down! His secret? Explosive power!


I know of very big muscular men who are not able to generate shock in their strikes or seizing movements! Then there are the “pit bulls of Uechi”-- Sensei Rabesa is a prime example!

Look at the manner The Shinjio family or Nakahodo sensei performs kata! Look at the way in which they condition themselves for power delivery! Moto and Taro had the strongest, crispest kata, performed with a “ sense of the enemy” if I ever saw one! Their fighting mindset was awesome, like two Samurai warriors!


The common denominator for power performance is explosive kata out of the study of a particular application of body mechanics! Some of the kata I see is indeed pitiful, and it shows when it comes to sparring or heavy bag work!



There are many levels of kata performance! They should be practiced for form and for extreme power! And they are really not supposed to pretty; anyone who wants pretty forms should take up ballet!


Uechi training must be complemented by weight training to increase shocking delivery!

Just to keep up, I train very intensely twice a week from seven to ten at the Brockton dojo, and three times a week in the gym with the Stairmaster and weights!

Hi power Uechi is not matter of how big you are, it has to do with how you train! Learn, but don’t be overly seduced by pressure points!

You wrote “Although we should strive to develop power I feel we should acknowledge our limitations and look deep into some other aspects of our training as well. “

What would you suggest, Gary?

We will continue to have limitations no matter what our level of power or training! Martial arts are marginal in self-defense as are handguns! Some people get shot with ten bullets in the chest and still have enough left to kill you before they collapse!


------------------
Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 09-14-99).]

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 09-14-99).]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 5:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
Sensei Canna,

I have not had the opportunity to see such Karate Masters as Nakahodo, Taro Tanaka or Moto Yamakura and i doubt not their power as you mention. Certainly you have seen much more than i and you are more knowledgable regarding ones developing such "explosive power".


Would you not agree that these men along with others whom you reference; Bob Bethoney and Art Rebesa are "acceptions" to the norm ? Remember, i spent many years training with Sensei Bethoney, Sensei Wilder and had occassional input from Sensei Rebesa and yourself. The power that you guys can generate is not matched by many. At least that i know of or many others whom i've spoken. My point is; we do not all have the ability to generate the kind of destructive hitting power that some others are capable of.

Regarding my statement; "Although we should strive to develop power i feel we should acknowledge our limitations and look deep into some other aspects of or training as well".

You ask; What would you suggest, Gary ?

I have just started to become aware of the many pressure point areas that were never expanded upon in 25 years. Yes, they are in our kata (or system) and i agree completely with the Okinawan Masters that believe in hitting pressure points or certain weak points with maximum destructive force !

I understand that they will not work all the time however, knowing a litte more about them helps. Also the control and take downs that you mention. One must "feel" the weakness in the opponents stance to make it work. With those like Bob Bethoney, they can just drop you when they want. I know, i've been there.

"Secrets of karate include seizing, controlling and take downs in addition to hitting". Yes, i understand that and practice it although i have never tested it on the street so i don't know how well it would work against a strong well routed individual.

You stated; We will continue to have limitations no matter what our level of power or training! Martial arts are marginal in self-defense as are handguns. Well said.

I only intend to emphysize that the majority of practioners do not contain the "power" in their abilities to be as destructive as others and that they may be a bit more carefull going in with the "mind set" that "power" will be all they need to be victorious.

Certainly avoiding direct hits by positioning oneself with distancing, working timing and accuracy in strike areas, being sensitive to the opponents stability in standing along with hitting with as much power as one can, may increase the chances of walking away when it's over.

I did not intend to downplay the importance of "power" only that it does have limitations.

If you would, please expand on how uechi training must be complemented by weight trainig to increase shocking delivery ?
Some believe that "weight training" inhibits the ability to produce speed due to the increase in bulk muscle.


Respectfully,

------------------
Gary S.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 6:10 am 
Gary:

I'm afraid that I do not agree that only exceptional people can strike hard. Perhaps those that strike as hard as a Bob Bethoney or Art Rebesa are indeed special and rare but hitting hard should not be. A small person hitting with mass can have a devastating effect. Everyone can learn to strike with mass and intent.

Can a large person hitting with mass strike harder -- yes.

Striking to good targets is always advisable but just striking hard gets you a chance to hit again -- perhaps with better targeting.

"In some cases that may be so but in general, how many 150lb to 180lb people have the hitting power to put down an opponent of say 220lb plus?" (John) A 100 pound mass kick to the thigh delivered with intent can do wonders. If it is from a small person, say a woman, the shock and surprise can increase the effect of the hit. Most people have never had a mass strike delivered. See Sensei Maloney's pressure point tape to observe the effect when he delivers a "light" mass kick to a Uechi conditioned thigh.

"The people who do not believe in the principle of the pull, control, seize and redirect and or unbalance to set up the opponent for follow up strikes are the ones who have never come up against a worthy opponent who will kick and otherwise hurt and stun the crap out of them with each blow making them feel helpless!" (Van Canna) YES!

There is a mistaken saying that comes up in some Taiji classes "do not use strength". It should properly be said "do not use strength against strength, always use strength against weakness".

"Inside wauki block taking out his shoulder or even stopping the punch?" My take on your words (and I could be wrong -- I have been before) is that this is a case of using strength against strength where YES the weaker person loses out. But learning to "pull, control, seize and redirect and or unbalance" with explosive power against a weakness, is a different story.

Just some thoughts,


Rick


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 7:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Hello all-
Good discussion!

The rise-drill-fall-overturn is the core of the Chinese Internal arts.You all know it, as well-it's the Seisan Pulldown!

Power is indeed necessary.Pressure points are fine, but in a fight may be either hard to access or not work at all!I don't depend on them, but do know them.

If you can get out of the way or get to an angle, great-but you can't always.If you can intercept and connect with the opponent's power and blend with it to destroy him, wow! Great again, but what if a huge body-builder on steroids has got you bottlenecked in the alley and three friends behind him waiting for a piece of you?

You are left with power.But power can be used intelligently by a rained person, as for instance wa-uke stopping a punch.

First if you can slant your body a bit it makes it easier.Or if you can guide the opponent's strength and turn his body, it'll work.

Or if you distract with a low kick say to the ankle as you step in and wa-uke zuki or shotei uchi(lower hand grabs 'generals' and pulls sharply downward as upper hand strikes jaw or solar plexus) -well, there's points and there's points.:-)

But I must say that small people can indeed use great power.When they focus that power at the place they are attacking, their power becomes greater than that of the opponent.For instance, a properly delivered boshiken to the throat has the capability of ending a fight, but of course there are no guarantees.It is well to have up to twenty successive full power strikes on tap.If that doesn't do it, A.You are in the wrong fight:-),and B.Run Like Hell.

John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 12:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Gary, and all,

We all try for maximum power, we all should try to deliver this power to the weakest areas to maximize the effects. I have trained some kids that undestand and can utilize the body contraction (whole body and or mass strike), and they can do some damage.

We all should try to maintain this power level if just for the ego, but should also realize that each one of us will reach a point when the aging process starts diminishing this power. Seeing, recognizing and understanding the constant changes the body, mind and spirit will go through is a key to keeping with the Arts for life. To be able to read oncoming limitations to prior preformance and "roll with the changes" becomes a primary focus. To this end some will be able to maintain a higher power level for longer while some will not.

I personally watch Professor Wally Jay as a guide to aging in the Arts (he has been teaching for over 60 years!). 83 and just coming off a quadrupal bypass, Professor is able to still generate power on command. Although it was not as much as he was able to yield at one time, it is much more focused with much less movement and the same destructive ability due to total relaxation until the split second delivery. Relaxed calm motion to flow and change with the situation, focus on weaknesses in the human anatomy, delivery of all you have mind, body and spirit when you attack, (internal aspects), Thank you Professor.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 1:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2073
Location: Boston, MA
Small people may not generate the overall power of a larger person but can do so pound for pound and more. Small folks can develop the power to take out a much bigger opponent. I know this in my heart and mind.

For defensive purposes, Yes, work on this.

david


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 1999 6:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
Power without technique is sloppy and wasteful. On the other hand, technique without power will simply result in you flailing ineffectively at an opponent. The two go hand in hand.

I have had the privilege of working with a former lightweight boxer for the last 7-8 years, on and off. While I easily outweigh him by fifty or sixty pounds, there is no question that he can hit harder, faster, and more accurately than I. Why? Because his form and technique are impeccable.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 1999 7:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Jake:

You bring in the unmentioned element: Speed.

Mr. Nakahodo is very clear in the explanation of the most important aspect of his training: Speed.

Power, as the equation tells us, is a rather simple affair.

In my own equation, technique is the symbol that strengthens this well-known formula to the "nth" degree.

More SPEED to create more power for you smaller folks (unless you plan on increasing mass with nighttime snacks on RingDings and Suzie Q's) [childhood favorites. sorry]!

Technique will set you free, yes, but don't count on her when the chips are down!

Gary S.: DO NOT look for other aspects in your training! They are tricks to help wimps believe that "this" will work instead of "that"! I have always been a firm believer in finding your WEAKNESSES and making them your strengths.

Do not look for martial arts secrets when the writing is before you on the wall. Practice what works. Let the other arts/artists pontificate about their death touches and dazzling hand techniques!

Strike hard, strike fast, no mercy SIR!

Respectfully,

Gary


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 1999 9:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Gary Khoury Sensei and J.D. San-
Re Meeting of minds: And I quote from that fbled text, the Secret Scrolls of Self-defense, Scroll number whatever it may be:'Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, hit 'em first and don't be last.'

By hit 'em first in this ancient scroll which I wrote, I mean you should not let them hit you first, not that you should blast a potential attacker into oblivion.

Some people, being macho, want to show off their conditioning by letting the opponent hit them one or more times.

The saying above epitomizes the true art of Okinawan Kenpo , which sparred full out with armor and , similar to Uechi, controlled conact without it, and emphasized three things:Form, Power and speed.

Form which follows function or rather creates function, i.e. circular blocks that deflect greater strength with arcs of circles properly and powerfully applied,strikes and kicks and punches also arcing in past blocks and under, around or through them:-),and flowing Chinese multiple hand combinations from in close overwhelming an opponent's defense, each thown with maximum power..

This sound familiar to Uechi practitioners?It should!

Line by line, then:'Hit 'em hard'

Practice of proper body dynamics through correct for and kata builds proper delivery, thus power.Repetitions, heavy bag, ec., builds more strength in the body.Lift weights or do other equivalent excercises if you wish and need.First build, form then power, and with repetition of form with power comes speed.

Hit 'em fast.Without enough speed, you will be hit first, second and third.Not good.Speed comes from learning to use only the mucles necessary to deliver a properly fomed technique or techniques with maximum power.Those who deliver speed with no power can be found in karate touraments and dojo sparring everywhere, because the only thing necessary to win sparring matches and tournaments of point fighting is speed, and a little form.In a real fight, these will go down fast and hard, and do.First form(for cover, protection and proper foudation) then power(for proper 'whackum'), then speed(to get there fustest with the mostest(sun tzu, I believe, as translated by a Civil War General).

Hit 'em first.Block their attack, or intercept it, or evade it.Conditioning is for when all these fail, to give you one last chance to live.Or just beat 'em to the punch.But if you see them coming, make the first solid blow that lands in a confrontation, be yours, not the other guy's.Stats show most street fights are won by the person delivering the first hard strike to the other one.Failing these, hit 'em as close to simultaneously as you can, to give yourself a chance.Old boxing trick:if they do hit you first, smile or laugh, and clean their clock.But don't, if you can, let themhit you first.They might just run the table, and you might jus lose your life.

'And don't be last.'Not the same as hit 'em first, don't be last means that you should train to react automatically in a situation, so that you aren't the last to know you are in a fight.Let the scumbag who attacks you be the last one to know, when and if he wakes up, that He has been in a fight.If your training
isreal, emphasizing good basics into the air, semisolid and solid objects, and done agains resisting partners,and good kata too,you should be able , when attacked by someone in third gear, to pass them by going from zero to sixty, 'overdrive',and overwhelming them before they can get there too.This I believe is the very highest level of ability, and what we all strive for.Yes, training can be fun, but it is training for this.

'Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, hit 'em first and don't be last.'

Those interested sould be aware that in traditional Okinawan Kenpo, points and such were taught only after Fourth Dan was reached.Until then the training emphasized Form, Power, Speed, twenty-seven basics,close in self defense waza (basically Jujitsu, they go for it or you break something), two-person drills emphasizing form, power and speed in close (six inches away) blocking and countering punches, kicks and strikes thrown to center line targets(miss the block at that distance , guess what-but you start soft and slow, till you get the hang of it, so very few injuries), and a series of graduated sparring drills, plus short fighting combiations and , oh, yes, kata.And makiwara, bag, hanging ball, and other object training.

Real sensible stuff and we were certainly not the only ones to do it.

Touches o' doom exist.But they are the last things you learn in that system, wherefrom they come.And we are taught that they don't always work, they are real hard to do in a full speed fight, and up to fourth Dan, everyone is taught form, power speed, control the center line, strike along the power lines<forward and sideward horizontal and vertical, to the centerline and through your own forward and side centerlines>and to blast the opponent ten feet back and follow them in throwing continuous flow full power techniques at speed.Wow, this is even scaring me!:-)

And we are also told the tuite moves are too slow to be used in a real fight, interestingly enough.They seem to be useful in a situation where you do want to show mercy, like with a drunken buddy at a party, or arresting someone.

And we are taught to protect the vulnerable areas of the body when in fights, as are Uechi practitioners, though in a slghtly different but related manner.

Anyway,there are tricks you can use, but it is best to have all the above as backup before trying any.

Hit 'em hard, fast, first(don't start fights but don't let them hit you first) and not last(to know you are in a fight.)

Interpretation of Ancient Secret Scroll provided free of charge:-), and hope it is of use to the general discussion.

John Versteeg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 1999 12:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
J.D. San,

Finally back in form...sort of missed the sharpend toungue sir. You pointificated...

"Touches of Doom! and other martial arts distractions "Tricks" are the last resort of the lazy. They take the place of work, just as pontificating in a dojo about theory replaces working out. Weight lifting is, well, hard, boring, and painful. Sooooo . . . rather than do it I will condemn it."
------------

Hitting more vulnerable targets is much harder and takes more concentrated effort than just striking a mass. One can delude themselves into thinking it as being a lazy way out, yet they themselves are now thrown in the paradigm you above described. It has always surprised me that a martial artist will instantly condem an idea just because they themselves don't practice it (IT'S NOT MY STYLE...IT'S BULL).

Yes there is alot more study, yes it is harder to target smaller areas during practice, yes it does take more concentrated effort than just hitting a head or body, yes there is pain involved, yes there is fear involved, yes there is adrenaline involved, (how many of you are face to face with someone targeting your carotid night after night), yes learning the bodies dynamics involves more mind work and yes putting that into real action takes more skill, pain and sweat period!

What everyone that condems or looks away from this method, (because it isn't real Karate...bull it's a base of Karate), needs to do is actually go to a Dojo that trains this and see how "EASY" it is before they can become expert enough to say it isn't .

As example when you enter our Dojo you stretch for 5 minutes, Kata for 10 minutes, concept for the night 5 minutes, then fast contact for the remainder of class with targeting in practice and no stops, not a dry Gi in the house.

Your statement..."Sooooo . . . rather than do it I will condemn it." isn't this what you just did? Those who condem anything should actually find out about it first.

John San is an Oyata class, easy and filled with tricks? I wouldn't be first in line to tell him his "Touches O'Doom" don't work and they are a lazy way out!

Gary San...welcome back!

You elequently stated...
----------
"Do not look for martial arts secrets when the writing is before you on the wall. Practice what works. Let the other arts/artists pontificate about their death touches and dazzling hand techniques!

Strike hard, strike fast, no mercy SIR!"
-----------------

If you don't practice another method how does one understand if it won't work?( ...and I don't mean take a weekend in the summer to work on it or worse just watch a demonstration on it) Only to condem it saying it's not real just because enough study, (read: "Hard work") was not put fourth, or worse yet not even attempted! I was told never shun knowledge just because you don't understand it, isn't it our duty to continue to reach higher levels instead of getting better at a certain level?

I am truly confused by this negative talk about unknown concepts? What happened to the empty cup?




------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 1999 1:48 pm 
Gary,

<ol>"With all respect, it is my understanding that there are many advocates of "Power" being the uttmost of importance in karate trainning."</OL>

Without the development of power, there is nothing.

<ol>"Although i can appreciate the need to develope "striking power" along with the ability to block, grab and control ones opponent, i also see the reality that many of smaller size cannot and will not be able to "equal" that of many others. Therefore leaving one at odds that would most likely leave them defeated."</OL>

Does this mean you feel those of smaller stature should not power train?

"I feel the development of "technique" ..."</OL>

You must think that Van is teaching ONLY power? This is far from true.

<ol>"be strong in my own practice. ...Inside wauki block taking out his shoulder or even stopping the punch ?
A weight lifter, althlete, football player, wrestler etc. etc.?"</OL>

Here is where knowledge is power. But the key word is still power. Are you advocating that the little guy and the woman stay away from power training just because they are small? That’s what it sounds like to me.

<ol>"It also appears as though when people focus on only power in their kata's it takes away the form in that the hardness and rigidness appears to be dominating. Of course being to soft and fast goes the other way in that it tends to develope sloppy and weak forms."</OL>

This power thing. ****! Practicing S+F leading to weak and sloppy forms? Only if you practice weak and sloppy. Whatever goes in, comes out in a refined fashion. Practice sloppy and you get sloppier right? Nothing to do with practicing slowly.

Sensei Canna quoted some Okinawan powerhouses. That’s great and true.

Cutting to the chase, knowing you are referring to the TC, you must have walked away thinking Van teaches only power? You must be really missing something, because he is teaching speed, accuracy, and grace on an equal level as he does power, only those messages are so subtle that you won’t get them unless you watch and study Van himself week after week. Watch his kata with an experienced eye. He is truly the master of the crane with all the animal's grace and power. Better still, procure a video of cranes fighting and watch how they imitate sensei Canna.

I remember being told once, a long time ago, to practice kata mainly with power. That in the beginning it looks rough, jerky, and crude. However, when you get good at it (key words again when you get good at it), your kata begins to look smoothe and graceful again with all the rough jerky edges refined into fast powerful pinpoint moves which can result in deadly accuracy.

I have a 3-way method which has served my Uechi training for many years. To this I add Van’s method, which I have practiced for a number of years in hard karate systems, and infrequently through the years in Uechi. Emptying the cup? Hell no! I don’t want to throw away fine wine, just pour more in because my cup is far from being filled yet.

Here’s my 3-way:
<ol>"At home, or in another private place, perform each kata every day in the following manner. Perform each kata three times, starting with the Sanchin kata. Do the first repetition slow and strong using maximum dynamic tension. This method builds strength, develops concentration, and heightens physical awareness.

Then perform the same kata at middle, or second speed, the normal testing speed. Second speed emphasizes definition and accuracy while at the same time develops speed and power.

For the third repetition, perform the kata fast as you possibly can with minimal emphasis on power and form . Do the high-speed repetition as you would imagine yourself in a true situation.

Do the kata only in the 1-2-3 sequence as prescribed above. If this is not enough for you, then perform the sequence of three again. This is a successful method of developing kata into a useful fighting tool, for at each speed you can analyze and mentor your own preformance at the other twospeeds."</OL>

But something’s missing. Kata is only one piece of the pie.

Enough! I wanted to discourse with all, but my time on the PC is up for today.


------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 09-16-99).]


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 1999 11:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 210
Location: Vincennes, In, usa
Evan Sensei asks:'John San is an Oyata class easy and filled with tricks?'

No.

Okinawan Kenpo workouts as they used to be in 1972, anyway, in the same lineage-from Nakamura Shigeru-as Taika Oyata, used to go like this:

Bow in, ten minutes of Taiso(calisthenics, called the Terrible Ten, by me:-).

Thirty to forty five minutes of standing basics done from a low horse stance you were not allowed to emerge from.

Thirty to fifty reps of
Front punch
Down punch
Up punch
Triple front punch
triple down punch
triple middle punch
front-side thrust punch
Front-roundhouse backfist punch
right-left backfist strikes
Middle block
down block
up block
Middle-down(Naihanchi) blocks

then into attention stance(heelstogether , toes out sixty degrees
and twenty of each
front kicks(alternate groin, head)
side thrust kicks
diagonal side thrust to knee
backthrust kicks
turning side kicks

then into seisan fighting stance with morote chudan kame and twenty each

Front kicks(alternate groin and as high as you want)
diagonal side thrust kicks
turn side kicks
inside out crescents
outside in crescents

then into low naihanchi stance and right left side thrust kicks
spin back kicks(done in place)

All done first few slow, rest full power and speed.

Then face front and do as a class Naihanchi One three times, first slow, then with power and precision, then combat speed(allout.)

Warm ups over, we take a five minute break.:-)

Then, taking seisan stance in rows, we go up and down the floor, doing

Front Kick-middle Punch-middle block
Side kicks-Naihanchi stance
Turn side kicks-middle block-seisan stance.
Turn side kick-back kick-middle block-seisan stance.
Spin back kicks, Naihanchi stance.
One turn spin back kicks, Naihanchi stance.
Jump double front kicks, seisan stance.
Jump side kicks, naihnchi stance.
Jump turn side kicks,seisan stance.
Jump spin back kicks-middle double block, seisan stance.

Then middle punches, seisan stance
down punches
up punches
triple punches-middle, then down then up(full session of each)
double steparound backfists in Naihanchi stance
Reverse middle punches seisan stance
reverse down punches
reverse up punches
Middle blocks, forward then backwards, length of dojo(long dojo)
Up Blocks, same
Down blocks, same
Side middle blocks, naihanchi stance steparound, forwards then backwards facing opponent
Side down blocks, naihanchi stance, same.

Then basics was over, now time for training in :Two man kumite drills
Self-defense techniques
Bag work
Free sparring with contact.
Specific technique traiing and, oh, yes,
Kata training.

That's a typical Okinawan Kenpo workout, over two thousand techniques thrown full power in two hours.Pure Hell.

Of course it's been toned down some since then for commercial purposes,
but that's the drill.Hardest workouts I've been through in my life.

Oyata and Odo were both all-style Okinawan Karate full-contact bogu kumite(armor sparring) champions at one time or another.

Point I'm making here is, Oyata, Odo or the others could kill you without the points or tuite.Yes, Okinawan Kenpo teaches them, but all this other stuff as well.

What's up on the Dojo walls in our style?'No pain, no gain.'
'The more you sweat in basics and kata, the less you bleed in Kumite.'
What is said verbally?

In my school , it was,'Kenpo isn't pretty, but by God, it's powerful.'

Kenpo teaches you to do what must be done.'

'Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, hit 'em first and don't be last.'

'Hit 'em twenty times full power.'

Now I've not been to an Oyata class, but we all come from the same root, Nakamura Shigeru.He was called Chizikun Bushi, Punch Knight, because of his ability to knock you out in armor kumite with either fist or either foot.Buckets o water were kept by the door to revive those so favored.My teacher had experience of this.Also Nakamura could pass this abilty on to his students, and did.

Now these were not point ko's, those wouldn't go through armor.These were Impact ko's, sheer power!

Thus we were taught in Kenpo, that it did not matter where you hit someone,if you hit with form, power and speed you could knock them ten feet back and on their backside, giving youtime to escape.Pure ballistic impact and focussed thrusts, force majeure!

Was I surprised to find out after twenty years of trainng that We were the secret technique style teaching tuite and kyushojutsu.We , the masters of the Shotgun Blast techniques that knocked anything standing through the nearest wall!:-)

Yet it makes sense:First teach gross muscle moves engineered for maximum thrust and power, targeted anywhere on the opponent's body or limbs, using close in circular tactics and powerline blast techniques.

Then when you can do those in your sleep,show them what is in their powerful katas hiding, waiting to come out.

See, if tuite or kyusho fail the Okinawan Kenpo stylist, he can always blast the assailant into the middle of next week.

That's how the training goes.

Hope this helps, and remember, we were in no ways unusual for an Okinawan style,my teacher studied there in the early Sixities, and I learned this way in the early Seventies as a first generation American students.

I was one of the 'invincible Green Belts' , wore one for two years, then brown for two, then first degree black for twelve years:-), now recognized by two Okinawan style orgs as Yondan and by three others as other ranks.

Believe me, anyone who made it through that trainng in the 'old days' came out a major meanie:-).

I of course am the sole exception.:-)

John Versteeg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 1999 2:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
To all,

Having just read the replies i must say wow! Lot's of input from many and impossible to respond to all the comments, veiws and/or opinions. However, thanks to all who have shared their thoughts.

Allen M. asked:

"Does this mean you feel those of smaller stature should not power train?

I believe that i may be misunderstood here. No that is not my belief! Of course i acknowledge the importance of developing "power" in ones training!

I have done much heavy bag work with intensity in an effort to increase my own "power". I have also done some concrete breaking which many know reguires much concentration on "power" along with "speed" and "form". In the effort to develop this power i also suffered much hand injury as a consequence. However i remember that hitting correcrtly with "speed" and "form" along with penetration increased my ability. I DO NOT disregard the need for "power" i simply feel there are "LIMITATIONS" to ones capacity.

Regarding the reference to the abilty to go "inside wauki block taking out his shoulder or even stopping his punch ect.ect." would any of you suggest to a student that if heavily out matched in size and strength by an opponent that they should actually go "inside" toe to toe, strength against strength instead of blocking outside "avoiding" the power and countering to the head, neck, ribs or leg ? Maybe a sweep or a takedown to the outside leg.

David said:
Small people may not generate the overall power of a larger person but can do so pound for pound and more. Small folks can develop the power to take out a much bigger opponent. I know this in my heart and mind.

I agree! However, does that mean we should go head to head with an opponent to see who has developed the most "power"?

I have sparred with people of my own size (185lb) 5'9" and smaller who hit very "hard"! I have also sparred some larger heavy weights that also hit very "hard". I must say "there is a difference". Backing up the bigger guys was harder to do and their strikes felt more "impact" on them.

Allen M. said: "you must have walked away thinking Van teaches only power? You must be really missing something because he is teaching speed, accuracy and grace on an equal level as he does power. Whatch his kata with an experienced eye etc. etc."

I must admit that i have gotten that impression (sorry Van) from some conversations i have had with him. I do not get the "opportunity" to work with Van as others have. Although i do have the uttmost respect for the knowledge and ability he holds.

"Empty the cup"! as Evan refers to does not mean to throw away what you already know. It is a "Zen" saying that implies one should make room for more knowlege. As you say, "your cup is not yet full."
The same thing is being said. (smile)

Regarding kata, i also have learned to practice it in the 3 repetitions you refer to. I believe that most of us do it that way "traditionally".

In reference to "Martial art tricks' as some put it, many styles have different approaches to them. Although i am a proud Uechiryu practicioner of many years and do some teachng, i am more willing to look at other veiws now than i ever was. Wrist locks, juitsu techniqes, chokes and pressure points all add expansion to our knowledge. Is it all valid and good for everyone ? Not at all but would not some styles think of some of the techniques we do as "tricks"? Just suggesting an open mind to all. Disagree ? That's O.K. to.

Hopefully some of you will understand now that i am not against the focusing on developing "power" only that it is a part of or defense as well as "avoidance stratagies", distancing and timing. Using good techniques and hitting effective targert areas.

Just as Kata is one aspect of our training, it is not ALL of it. Hope to hear more on the subject. Once again, thank you all for the input.

Respectfully,

------------------
Gary S.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 1999 5:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 123
Evan and J.D:

A little while back I served on a jury for a case that involved a prison stabbing they almost dissqualified me because of my martial arts. In the victim's testimony, he claimed that the initial stab in his lower latissimus dorsi felt like a train hitting him from behind. The weapon was a long screw of some sort with a cloth handle. The victim was 6'+ 230+ lbs. The attacker was around 5'6" and about 140lbs. The wound was superficial, requiring only a small 2-ply bandage.

Now as far as "touches of doom" and power go: Power percieved is power achieved right? If that tiny puncture from a scrawny man felt like a train hitting the victim from behind and knocking the wind out of him, isn't that power? Isn't that the basis of kyusho? Focuss your intent into a very small area and your force will be greater.

I don't know much about the "light striking" end of kyusho as I have next to no experience in it, but I do know a bit about focussed strikes to vulnerble targets, and I can say with certainty that a little man employing these techniques can easily as powerful as a hulking giant flailing the haymakers.

-Collin


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group