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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:38 am 
Gary:

You are correct that speed is indeed an important part of the power equation. Speed on an attack also adds another factor that increases power -- momentum.

I disagree that someone cannot increase their mass. And I don't mean eating snacks. I am talking about the mass that they put into the strike. If a 150 lb person puts 10 lb. into a strike it will generate only a certain power, if they put 100 lb they increase that power mightily!. And they still have 50 lb. to go.

How do they get mass? It is in HOW they do the strike. One of the ways is proper body alignment and connection.

There are other other factors we could introduce -- some do not penetrate. Adding intent is another factor.

So, mass is not the only thing, but it is of major importance.

Rick


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 1999 10:20 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
Gary S,

I don't believe one should go "head to head" with power, especially if one is small in stature. There are ebbs and flows in a match or a fight. These happen quickly. Training helps (with a lot of sparring and drills) one see them. Good training helps in developing the speed and power to take advantage of them.

david


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 1999 11:55 am 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Alright how about this for a question...is it speed that is needed or timing?

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Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 1999 2:14 pm 
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Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
Rick,

I agree that one can increase there "power" by hitting with more of their mass. Obviously the less effort one puts into their strike the weaker it will be.

When i work out on a heavy bag i stay relaxed then expload with "speed" and focus on impact all of the body and energy i have coming from the ground up.
Doing repetition drills i have found that focusing on the impact of each strike or kick generates as much power as possible. Even then i sometimes do not feel the "power" is sufficient. Or is it my continuos strive towards perfection that leaves me not satisfied? May it be that being as i put "all" my energy into my strikes with mass, speed, torque etc. etc. it seems as though there is "no more" mass to add ? Limitations ?

Evan, I believe that speed and timing are part of the same "equation". Being fast without the correct timing i feel will not get the target one desires. It has to do with distancing which is another part of the equation.

Are not speed and timing related to eachother ?

Respectfully,

Gary S.

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Gary S.


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 1999 10:49 pm 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Gary San,

Going inside an opponet can be safer and have more devastating effect as those "Soft Squishy Parts" are all right there....only 3 stipulations here:

1. You must commit with all.
2. You must wear the individual like a shirt.
3. You must be able to actually work in close.

It's hard for even a big man to concentrate whilst you bang him about the head and neck...(J.D. San your wit and satire infect me sir...minor albeit, yet none the less).

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 1999 5:02 am 
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Posts: 123
You must have the proper timming, ie. mental apprehension of your opponent's movements and defensive weaknesses, AND the speed to be able to react without hessitation or cessation of movement. This holds true for fending off incomming blows and attacking the assailant.

One thing I do believe pertaining to speed is that the "mental" aspect is much more important than the physical. Just my opinion; can be argued and countered into infinity.

-Collin


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 1999 6:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
Timing vs. Speed

This is one of those concepts that I'm still wrestling with, but my understanding of it so far is this.

1. Both are integral components of a good fighter.

2. Timing is what allows you to execute your technique at the proper moment. With good timing, you may hit your opponent, but the effect will be substantially reduced because the attack has been launched at an improper moment. Anyone who has ever tried to throw someone they thought was off balance, only to get there too late, knows exactly what I mean.

3. Speed is an asset to generating power (Force = Mass x Velocity. It will also allow you take advantage of openings presented by your opponent, openings which can be found through your timing.

As I said, I'm still wrestling with the definitions of both, but I think that both are integral components of any good fighter. And both can be assets to power. The faster something goes, the harder it hits...this we all know. But it is also true that something may feel harder because it hits at an unexpected moment, or a moment when we are least ready to recieve it. Both timing and speed are assets to power.


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 1999 2:05 pm 
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Posts: 671
Jake, a correction on the physics, Force equals mass times velocity SQUARED or mass times ACCELERATION. A small gain in velocity equates to major gains in force. It's the speed that counts.

VTY,

Kevin


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 1999 6:43 am 
Gary S:

Certainly sounds like you have everything working well. Very well connected strikes often feel less powerful than poorly connected ones. This is because poorly connected strikes have force dissipating back into unaligned parts of our bodies and we "feel" that force. Well aligned strikes dissipate the force into the ground and we "feel" them less.

Pardon me for not knowing your background, but do you get a chance to hit well conditioned people? A punching bag that gives verbal feedback is one of the best tools for judging your striking strength.

Yes, there are physical limitations that you can reach. As Gary K said you are limited to the mass that you have, so once you are striking with every bit of it then that is that. However, there are other elements that come into play: striking through, and I agree with who ever posted about mental aspects -- intent.


Kevin:

An engineer friend and training partner does not exactly have the acceleration squared but he did write me a very long explaination dealing with force and kinetic energy that goes into the force equation in great detail:

To Rick W.

A couple of points on the question posed. I think he is miss interpreting the force (F = MA) equation. It isn't how fast that you accelerate "to" but how much velocity you de accelerate into the target and the time it takes to do this. Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity with respect to time. Therefore in our application, we can simplify to Vd the velocity dissipated into the target and Td the time it takes.

Therefore, the equation can now be represented by F = MVd/ Td

I look at the equation F = MA as the potential force that could be developed and the equation F = MVd/ Td as the actual. For example, if your punch was accelerated to 1000 miles per hour and you only dissipate 10 miles per hour into a target because you pulled the punch. The 10 miles per hour is the only number of concern to the target. Note: 990 miles per hour is the velocity that was pulled and that force is absorbed by the punchers body. The above equation applies. It is important to learn to punch through a target. That's why people hurt their shoulder when they punch air if they hold their shoulder rigid as some people are known to do in Sanchin. All the force is dissipated into their shoulder.

What makes increasing the dissipating velocity doubly attractive is that by doubling this velocity you increase your punching force by a factor of 4. This is because you decrease the time by 50 percent in most cases. Using simple numbers to illustrate this point.

F = M x Vd/ Td where Vd = 4 miles per hour and Td = 4 sec
F = M x 4/4 = 1 M

if we double the velocity by making Vd = 8 miles per hour and the time reduces to Td = 2 sec

F = M x 8/ 2 = 4 M

Kinetic energy is another tool to use to understand the effect of a punch. Kinetic energy is a measure of the motion of a body and is a measure of the capacity of a body for doing work because of its motion. To create kinetic energy a force has to be applied to a body and displace it in space. This application of force (F) and displacement (D) is measured as "Work". Work is a technical term that is defined as the measure of the effectiveness of a force in moving a body thru a distance (Work = F x D). It is measured in foot pounds. If you have 550 of them you have 1 horsepower. The amount of work applied to a body determines its kinetic energy. One's punch can be considered a moving body and thus has kinetic energy. Therefore a force had to have been applied to the mass (body) of the punch to cause it to move. Until he hits the target, Kinetic energy is the capacity of the punch to do" Work". Therefore, when the punch hits the target, the kinetic energy is converted into a force which tries the target in space. This "Work" gives the target kinetic energy. Again, what is important is not the velocity of the punch but the velocity that is dissipated or applied to the target. What is interesting, is that you need to use the mass (Mt) of the target hit and its change of velocity (Vt) to measure the work done. The punch's mass (M), the velocity dissipated (Vd) and the time to dissipate (Td) are used to determine the force applied. So when he hits the target

Work = 1/2 Mt(Vt)(Vt) = FD
where F = MVd/ Td

As always, I look for what is the objective. I believe the objective is to determine how to develop a more effective strike and to be able to explain to one's students the importance of what we are teaching. That is why I like the force equation so much. It has all the components that do that. Three simple terms, mass, velocity and time. Kinetic energy ignores time. Time is critical if you consider that it takes longer to dissipate a punch in belly fat than on your chest. Therefore with the same velocity and mass you will generate more force hitting the chest than belly. This leads to having a strong weapon. It doesn't do much good to punch the chest if you break your wrist. This bring to mind Newton's law of motion that states " for every action there is an equal and opposite action". This helps us understand the importance of being properly anchored (good stance) when we hit somebody. As you have probably observed over the years, I can get lost exploring the implications of this equation.

by Rick Bottomley

Rick W.


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 1999 6:10 pm 
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Location: Newton, MA
ah..er...Darn it Jim, I'm a martial artist, not a physicist!

And people ask me if the martial arts require any brainpower.

Thank you for the physics lesson. Very interesting concepts indeed.


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:55 pm 
Prof. Rick

STOP IT!!! You're making my brain hurt. Oh, the painful physics' flashbacks!

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Shelly


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 1999 11:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
Rick,

Thank you for your input and your Lesson on "physics". (what did he say ?) Although you detail the equation very much i had fond a simular equation that is most likely of the same only simpler to understand.

In reading "Karate Breaking Techniques" when i was into breaking i read this:

Amoung the aspects of breaking, there are these basic principles: Speed, Power, and Penetration. Although these principles are always used in combination, one of them will dominate in each type of break you execute. We usually concentrate on speed and power in a practice break, and we should. But an equally important, though much neglected, aspect of development is penetration. Penetration is the ability to transmit the initial force of a blow through the entire movement without diminished power. Without penetration, the generated speed and power would not go beyond the first object you make contact with.

Velocity dissipated = diminished power.
Yes, the penetration of power is essential to do internal damage to an opponent. Anything else may only bruise the outside body.

You asked, do i get a chance to hit well conditioned people ? I do frequently and when i do, i make the most of it. Love it ! A few people whom i work out with at "The Hut" with Sensei Mattson have been around awhile and like "high level" conditioning. Although some don't agree with it or care to induldge in it, i always feel great after intense conditioning. Also i am bringing up the level with a couple of dan rank students of my own. I feel that if you cannot withstand the impact of "controlled" hitting, what will happen when someone "really" hits you ? Just my take on the subject.


Enough rambling, off to class.



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Gary S.


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 Post subject: Limitations of "Power"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 1999 7:12 am 
Gary:

I agree completely on conditioning.

I just read a bit about your background on another thread -- consider the question withdrawn!

Rick


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