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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 1998 8:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 343
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Are there any? Depends on the circumstances, I suppose, I wouldn't attempt a seisan jump-back on an icy or rainy street. Actually I would avoid any "off-the-ground" techniques,
No jumping, spinning, flying, hopping or skipping for me (bad knees).

How about the Sanchin arm strike. Other than modifying the target of the strike to the opponent's eyes, neck or nerve points along the shoulder, are there any other practical applications for this strike? I understand that the retraction could be used as a block. Any argument with that?

Nukites: It seems to me that unless you trained with Shushiwa in China practicing hand conditioning drills for 12 hours a day, these strikes might only be useful for attacking soft tissue targets. Um, Does anyone have the video of Master Uechi ripping out an enemy's heart with his bare hands :-)?

Tiger strikes: I understand that one application of these strikes could be to crush the rib cage. Has anyone used this strike effectively?

These are a few that come to mind. Any thoughts on this matter?

Thanks,

Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 1998 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Sir,

Sanchin Arm Strike:
I have developed 15 different ways to KO someone with this motion, Street worthy not just Dojo Drills. How about the retraction of the elbow in the beginning being a rear elbow for a rear attack or a mapping of Liver #13 with angle and direction to be able to break the rib into the kidney? How about the ending retraction just after the strike hitting the opponent back to front or as a trapping motion of the opponents arm in close? Enough Sanchin arm strike?

Nukite: The spearing motion at the Liver #13 can kill. Poke the fingers into the Intercoastal space at Liver #14 for a real inner disruption, catch the arm points with the other hand and do it and out goes the opponent. Use the other claw hand to pull the guys head down and use Nukite to the throat areas. Use the claw hand again to catch the opponents writs and use Nukite as a palm to the back of the elbow, pop!

If the Tiger Strike is the lunging elbow: This can be an arm break, a KO (actually several different ones possible), or a kill.

The Uechi Kata are Powerful and just plain mean, they are more deadly than most of the other 53 Kata's I used to do. I have thrown out all but 5 and Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiru are three of them, go figure.

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 1998 4:57 am 
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Evan,

I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression. I am a dedicated student of Uechi and I personally feel that it is (at least for me) the best defensive system "on the market". I was just acting as devil's advocate to promote the discussion.

So here is my question, do you (or anyone else) feel that any of the techniques we practice might be ineffectual under various circumstances?

You also made reference to certain pressure points via a numbering system. Speaking for myself (and I am sure others) I don't have the same frame of reference as you do since I have not studied kyusho. Would you mind giving an anatomical reference as to the points you were talking about?

You confirmed my thoughts concerning the nukites, I believe the targets you referenced in your reply were all soft tissue targets. It appears to me that these same targets would be vulnerable to shoken strikes, as well.

I have one other question (for everyone), Which Uechi technique or combination of techniques would you choose above all others for a kill or KO?

My personal favorite would be a double shuto against a round house punch (I know that there are nerve points along the inside of the arm but I just don't know the numbering system for these points), followed by an elbow smash to the face, Reiken to the face/chin and shoken to the sternal notch.
I don't know if this would knock anyone out but I have a feeling "Mr. Gang Banger with a bad attitude" would be seeing a plastic surgeon.

Any thoughts?


Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:17 am 
I used to wonder about the open hand techniques such as the Nukite. Same thoughts, hand conditioning etc. I wondered until I stepped in even closer to a partner one day. Take a step in close, passed where we usually think of Uechi Space but not a clinch as in a grappling take down. If your hands are up you see many quick strike targets to the neck area. All of a sudden crane strikes, nukite strikes and yes Sanchin straight thrusts are what seem very natural. These are shorter strikes than what we see in Kata but very effective.

As to some techniques not being effective in certain circumstances, I think every technique has its principle and use. Use them in the wrong spot and they will be ineffective.

Rick


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 1998 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 75
Mike San,

Try looking at this:
http://www.erols.com/kyusho/points.htm

As for my favorite Uechi technique it is in Sanseiru as the crane beak at the end of the kata for the KO and just one of the double hand strikes in Sanchin which is the same as Sanseiru's beak only smaller tighter and much more devastating. All is in Sanchin, it's repititious but absoulutely true.

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 1998 9:53 pm 
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Posts: 670
To Miked, As far as a knockout/kill strike, I'd put my money on a Boskin (palm heel) anywheer on the chin. At best, you'll get the head straight back for some very sever whiplash or a broken neck. An oblique strike could possibly hit that stomach nerve along the jaw that Evan Sensei has shown in his web page this week which would cause a KO. It would certainly knock someone senseless long enough to beat a hasty retreat.

This is a technique where only your best Sanchin thrust will do. Draw back after a good defensive block and let fly. It also follows the preference to open handed strikes mentioned here a few weeks ago.

Makiwara training will build up the palm considerably.

VTY
Kevin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 1998 1:58 am 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Kevin San,

Setup, not block.

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 1998 1:09 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 1998 6:01 am
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Good question! I suppose there is no simple answer, since there are students strong enough to make anything work, and others who couldn't make a knee or a straight punch work! The key, in the long run, may be to "know thyself" as Socrates advised so many centuries ago... know your own strenghts and weaknesses. I will sometimes ask a dantest student, when I am on the board, to talk about one technique that works very well for them, and one that just does not "fit" their particular strength or ability. It is surprising to find that some candidates seem to think anything "Uechi-ryu" is automatically great... as though it would be disloyal to question or doubt.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 1998 7:26 pm 
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Posts: 1089
I am so happy to discover this forum (I'm exploring the various forum sites like a gourmet approaching a feast with a lingering taste and reflection of "this" before I move on to "that." I very much look forward to meeting you, Sensei Canna at the next summer camp!
For whatever it's worth, I like to think of the movements in the Uechi-Ryu curriculum as conceptual rather than discrete units of "you do this and I do that in retaliation." As everyone subscribing to this forum seems to be pretty hip to the verities of real combat, we know that choreographed material is, if taken at face value, just that - dance. However, if we see the movements of the kata as paradigms of energy vectors then each movement becomes rich with implication for bunkai interpretation. This is usually amplified by taking each movement in concert with the movements preceding and following it. Thus, the "pull back" from Sanchin strike can be not only an elbow to the rear, but also a grab pulling something back to "borrow power" from the opponent and augment the strike that you're sending out with the other hand. As such it represents exercising simultaneous independent action of the hands, an activity which if close range combat is to be given more than lip service in our art, must be fully researched...ie, are all those one armed exercises we do in Hojoundo really implying that we should fight with only one hand? Obviously no. It also introduces the ideas of Yin and Yang into the form, ideas that become very pervasive and important in all subsequent kata.
Similarly, although I personally enjoy conditioning the fingers, I don't confine the interpretation of the nukite strikes to what is "screwed on" the end of the wrist. I see the nukite strikes as conceptually teaching me how to stike with relaxed (using the concept of "Sung" meaning explosive/elastic power rather than "limp"), grounded, and totally committed power that uses the elbow as the origen of the power line, as much absence of tension in the antagonistic muscles (particularly biceps) as possible, and use of the back as the foundation and stabilizing structure of the attack. With those ideas in mind, it really doesn't matter what form the hand takes. Could be a nukite, could be a fist, a shoken, a palm heel, or, if I somehow break my hand and still have the opportunity to hit you, could be my wrist. For that matter, if you block my strike, the same lessons learned in the Sanchin strike prepare me to effectively convert the energy initiated in the nukite into an elbow attack, a "leak-over" or "under" your bridge arm into a side of the hand strike to the bladder, etc.
As Sensei Steve and Evan say on their excellent tape series, don't take this stuff at face value, there's much much more to it.....and less.
Best to all,
David


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 1998 3:33 am 
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Great post by David Elkins ! David , let me welcome you to this forum with open arms as you are a man after my own heart ! The pleasure will be mine to shake hands at the next summer camp …God willing !

"For whatever it's worth, I like to think of the movements in the
Uechi-Ryu curriculum as conceptual rather than discrete units of
"you do this and I do that in retaliation." if we see the movements of the kata as paradigms of energy vectors then each movement becomes rich
with implication for bunkai interpretation. "

Extremely well said , and that is the way Rabesa sensei and I teach …I suspect Campbell sensei also !

"I see the nukite strikes as
conceptually teaching me how to strike with relaxed (using the
concept of "Sung" meaning explosive/elastic power rather than
"limp"), grounded, and totally committed power that uses the elbow
as the origin of the power line, as much absence of tension in the
antagonistic muscles (particularly biceps) as possible, and use of
the back as the foundation and stabilizing structure of the attack.
With those ideas in mind, it really doesn't matter what form the
hand takes. Could be a nukite, could be a fist, a shoken, a palm
heel, or, if I somehow break my hand and still have the opportunity
to hit you, could be my wrist."

The best description yet of Uechi 'locomotion' ! Your well written observations above are the reason why Bob Campbell , Rabesa -san and I , don't really care much for our prearranged kumite drills …I much prefer to put 'kumite' time to a better use , such as heavy conditioning and 'slammer ' bunkai interpretations ! I know lots of you will disagree , and I mean no offense , but I think all our prearranged kumites are pretty much useless after shodan rank , as they are very basic and very restrictive and program the ' robot' response in you ! A real fight will not resemble any of those kumite moves >>and if you need to develop timing , distance and opponent control and submission [ the only way to practice] then you should be heavy into bunkais with a vengeance ! And even our bunkais need a more free flowing interpretation than what you are used to and believe will work in a real fight ! [ especially in the blocking applications ] ! …Watch sensei Rabesa at work !

I know I will get an argument here , but the manner in which our Uechi blocks and counters are taught to work in practice against 'phantom' attacks , will leave you totally defenseless in a real situation , as it has been proven before many times over ! But not many of you will really believe this …in which case you should take a couple of lessons with Rabesa sensei …your eyes will open wide when coming face to face with the purest example of " paradigms of energy vectors" ! He will close range on you like you never experienced before and you will collapse falling forward unable to see , explain or understand where the hit that put you down came from !
I wish you luck !

Thank you David ,

Van


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