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 Post subject: Equalizers, Again...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 1998 1:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Thursday night 7 people were slashed and stabbed in Chinatown by two opponents, going through them like a hot knife through butter. Talking to various people and the cops, I was able to get an idea of what happened.

Two teens from another part of town were passing through and got into in verbal match with some of the locals. The boys decided to "have a go at it." The visitors were more than willing to accommodate the seemingly uneven odds since they were packing knives. (Conflicting reports, it may actually have been one knive on the smaller guy of the two. The other guy was a 275 pounder.) Anyway, it was less than a couple of minutes when the "altercation" was done. The results: One stabbed through the lungs (possibly nicking the heart), one stabbed five times in the back, two stabbed near the back area, one slashed near the neck and several slashed in the arm/hand area. Of the latter, one was a woman collegue of mine who was slashed across her hand as she tried to stop the conflict.

The "armed" opponents (or opponent) were very committed (mindset). An eyewitness said she didn't even see the knives (knive). All she saw was "fighting, people dropping and blood everywhere." The two walked away after dropping everyone. The two were apprehended later that evening and were arraigned yesterday.

I know some of the locals. They are not "trained" but have had their share of fights. Nevertheless, they were evidently easy pickings in this situation.

david


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 Post subject: Equalizers, Again...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 1998 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
"OK, guys and gals. Tonight we're going to train in unarmed knife defense and knife disarms. I will demonstrate for you twenty-five sure-fire techniques that are guaranteed to allow you to come out the victor in ANY confrontation with any assailant brandishing a blade! ARE WE READY?"

Puh-leeeze. Give me a break. When are we going to begin understanding the proper mindset of engagement when weapons are involved and learn to use the environment and whatever else is available and handy to extricate ourselves from what will become a very short and possibly very deadly encounter?

What amazes me about this incident is that after the first "victim" was stroked, the rest of the clan kept offering themselves as fodder for the meatgrinder! What were they thinking - "oh, there's more of us than them, we can take them!" Wait, wait, they were teenagers and therefore invincible. How stupid of me!

David, what was your lady collegue thinking when she decided to jump into the fray (unarmed obviously) in an attempt to halt it? No disrespect meant, but I don't think that was the smartest thing she (or anyone else) could have done. The guy wielding the blade had only one thing on his mind at the moment and chatting with your friend was not it.

Perhaps instead of practicing methods of engagement were weapons are involved, we would be better off practicing methods of dis-engagement.

Armed vs unarmed? No contest. Sorry.

Moe Mensale


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 Post subject: Equalizers, Again...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 1998 2:13 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Moe,

>>"OK, guys and gals. Tonight we're going to train in unarmed knife defense and knife disarms. I will demonstrate for you twenty-five sure-fire techniques that are guaranteed to allow you to come out the
victor in ANY confrontation with any assailant brandishing a blade! ARE
WE READY?" Puh-leeeze. Give me a break. When are we going to begin understanding the proper mindset of engagement when weapons are involved and learn to use the environment and whatever else is available and handy to
extricate ourselves from what will become a very short and possibly very deadly encounter?<<

I offer the incident exactly to have folks seriously consider their thinking, training and approach.

What amazes me about this incident is that after the first "victim" was stroked, the rest of the clan kept offering themselves as fodder for the meatgrinder! What were they thinking - "oh, there's more of us than
them, we can take them!" <<

According to someone I talked to, she said the incident probably concluded under two minutes. Personally, I would conjecture maybe a minute. The point (no pun intended) is that I don't think the guys knew they were facing knives (a knife) until half of them got it. And the ones stabbed in the back were probably trying to get away but were tripping over each other.

>>David, what was your lady collegue thinking when she decided to jump into the fray (unarmed obviously) in an attempt to halt it? No disrespect meant, but I don't think that was the smartest thing she (or anyone else) could have done.<<

My colleague was thinking and acting with her heart. She's not a martial artist but was not afraid to intervene. She has my respect even more.

>>Perhaps instead of practicing methods of engagement were weapons are involved, we would be better off practicing methods of dis-engagement.<<

I agree. Think hard and think again before "getting into it" with someone. That person may be wielding a weapon. Is the issue at hand worth your life potentially?

david


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 Post subject: Equalizers, Again...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 1998 11:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30404
The knifing in Chinatown should reinforce what we have been discussing on this forum all along , albeit, not universally accepted because of prejudice and perpetuating self delusions about our defensive martial arts skills ! I can hear the arguments and rationalizations already ..the Monday morning quarterbacking ..the Uechi v. kyusho v. "okuden" v. styles and systems ad nauseam ..the tactical mistakes and on and on ….

The cold facts of life are that when violence comes , it will be with blinding speed , surprise and cruelty ! By the carrying of knives , the fighters had 'mindset' long ago` to use them on living flesh without hesitation ! When you come up against such an explosive relentless attack which , seemingly, gets to you in between heart beats and you don't even become conscious of the knife until you have been stabbed a few times , you can junk all your martial arts training , I don't care what system you are currently selling, because it is your time to die ! Avoidance >> awareness ? sure ! But you will find, to your chagrin, that in most of these situations , it is easier said than done !

In the majority of the times you will be smack in the middle of it in the blink of an eye ..and, to your consternation, the lies, You have been feeding yourself and your students with>> about how great your style and your teachings are in dealing with the 'sudden' knife , will be kicking your backside as your blood spills ! Even as you attempt to flee , as David points out , you will be tripping on your feet , on passerby's , and your very own dying friends presenting a tantalizing target to the opposition !

As you commit to the confrontation you will have made your bed and you are going to lie in it , for better or for worse ! If you have any fantasies of dealing with a determined knife at pumping speed as you trip over your own two feet while trying to resurrect one of your 'formidable' techniques from under your high 'dan' ranks …you really need to see a shrink! Even with a concealed snub-nose .38 special firing from your pocket , you will probably still get stabbed ..even as you mortally wound the attacker ! Yeah , I know , lots of techniques out there by the enlightened ones , I am sure we are going to hear a few..maybe this is one 'demonstration ' for Sifu Mooney , and I mean no disrespect ..but I would be very impressed if he could stop them dead in their tracks with a look in a split second !

The obvious answer to this is to always enter the fight as expecting force of arms to be introduced and preparing yourself in "layered response" dimension , which , obviously , includes, martial prowess, as a 'minimum' component only ! Hey!..Where are the arguments ?

Van


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 Post subject: Equalizers, Again...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 1998 11:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
David,

I am sure your collegue meant well and is probably a very caring person, but the midst of a confrontation where a flesh slashing, organ piercing blade is making its "rounds" is not the place to think and act from the heart.

As you said, "Is the issue at hand worth your life potentially?"

Moe


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