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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 1998 2:23 am 
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Posts: 30556
J.d. San ,
You wrote "Not to
kick His Most Sublime Forum Administrator, but the Italians have
had more governments than years since WWII"

That is how the Italians show contempt for "big brother" To the Italians , the world is a stage on which to play out individual emotion and establish personal /private priorities and the hell with government of any kind …social standards of any kinds …to the Italians , government is a corrupt entity to be used to its fullest ! It is this ' attitude ' that allows the Italians to really enjoy each other and life in general ! And they know how to pursue life with a passion ..this is why the great majority of tourists fall in love with Italy and dream of moving there …especially the women !

One female executive just returning , will be applying for a "squeegee" position working in San Marco square , Venice , [ cleaning up after the floods] ! That is a job which will last 200 years and she is ready to throw the "American dream" away for a chance to live the fairy tale of Venice !

We sure have lots of problems : like be careful if you hold a door open for an American woman today as she may slam it in your face , then she will spend thousands of dollars for shrink therapy because she has difficulty reaching an orgasm !

You want more? How about this : There was a time when "mom" was always there ..the words "day care" were not in our vocabulary and welfare was called "relief" !

School started each day with a prayer and a pledge , kids went to school to learn , not to socialize or make a fashion statements …American college graduates have shown to be intellectually inferior to the European counterparts …..Once we were taught to say please and thank you instead of 'gimme' and a contemptuous stare !

Our clothes were clean and stylish , and we wore our caps with the brim in front to shield our eyes from the sun , as they were designed ! We looked up to Ike and John as leaders to be admired , convicted murderess were executed promptly instead of languishing in prison for years on hand on death row filing appeal after appeal !

When tragedy struck , we dried our tears , stuck out our chin and went on with life instead of beating our breasts and holding countless memorial services seeking psychologists to tell us how to cope ! Newspapers presented both sides of an issue without political slant >>

Today thoughts and actions are suppressed for fear being politically incorrect ..our courts are clogged up with so many frivolous law suits , we are the laughing stock of all other jurists around the world ; we don't have a criminal justice system , we have a legal system ..no one is held responsible for his actions …government strives to make our decisions …[ after all government and all its infinite bureaucracies are smarter than we are and know better what is good for us .They said it was so >>so trust them ..Right? ]

We must be careful in the work place to pay any compliments to a well dressed woman lest she cries "sexual harassment " BTW >> one sexual harassment case I handled , the plaintiff's name was "Dolly Hollywood" ! So we have taken all the fun out of being men and women ..the women get all dressed up and they are totally ignored and go home frustrated without knowing why !

But the biggest lacking in our society today is the unwillingness to punish someone who has done wrong because he belongs to our "group " ! Until we conquer this , we will always be a second rate Nation , regardless of how powerful or rich we might be ! [ compliments of Russell Zulick , Allentown , Pa ] I think That is in the United States !

Van


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 1998 4:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Hartland, WI&Oxford, MA USA
Why do we fear the future?? Or what our actions in the here and now will bring in the future?? One's inaction during a serious attack on another is just as bad as one's intervening and later being sued.

Why do we train in a martial art? We not only train for the immediate benefits ( health, technique, etc) , but I hope we train for self defense. The reality of self defense is also defending others. If we live in fear of lawsuits, etc. Then why do we train at all? You are wasting your time. Not stepping in is the anti-thesis of karate.

Massachusetts has a "Good Samaritan" Law which holds a person harmless from civil liability while assisting someone in need. For many years it was used in the realm of rescuing one during first aid situations. But I would suggest that during a crisis such as a mugging, etc. One utilizing his/her martial knowledge aiding someone can be considered being a "Good Samaritan".

Basically, if we train, we train for the reality of utilizing our technique in real life. If we train for the philosophical concepts of the martial arts, then we are not fully immersing ourselves into real karate.

Regards,

Jim Prouty
Jundokan International of New England


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 1998 12:13 pm 
Hello Jim,

Massachusetts Good Samaritan Law? Cheese! Do you really trust laws to be on your side?

You said: "But I would suggest that during a crisis such as a mugging, etc. One utilizing his/her martial knowledge aiding someone can be considered being a "Good Samaritan"."

YOU may be willing to pay the price of an expensive lawsuit, possible incaceration, and probable ruination of your life as you now know it if you get involved in a pugalistic situation involving strangers because you are a goodie samaritan.

Not I, pal. I once came to the rescue of a young boy being hit by an adult man only to have to 'work' my way out of going to court. Good Samaritan, right! I'll mind my own business, and reach for the nearest phone, if appropriate, if I see something like that again.

I have saved lives of people in danger of iminent death on more than one occasion while knowingly placing myself into the same risks and will do it again but I WILL STAY OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS because it often doesn't pay to get involved. Callous maybe, but once burnt twice shy.

Rule of thumb is to use your better judgement which can be different for each instance.

Words from someone a little wiser.

Allen


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 1998 1:11 pm 
Hello Lori. I promised to respond; better late than never -- Allen

L: Now wait just one minute here!

A: Accept my apologies of the delay to your response of 10/23.

L: I was simply going to make the following statement: This is exactly why we have to teach women to yell "fire" instead of "rape" when they are being attacked - without threatening the personal safety of passersby - the fact remains that most, if not all will not get involved! You know that there is story after story describing this sad state of apathy.

A: You have a good handle on how to advise women in times of trouble. Better to scream "Fire" or "Puke" than "Rape" to get more attention.

L: But now - I find I must respond to your post Allen-san! (To the consternation of the readership! Look at them run for cover!)
Seriously, I don't think that our honorable forum moderator is "getting down on Americans"

A: I feel that way sometimes. But I don’t think Americans should be uniquely placed upon a pedestal (or under one). I am an American and am proud to be one

L: for I find that I agree with his assessment of our society as a whole! I have also lived overseas, and have had opportunity to expatriate myself for a few years at a time, but it is here I have returned and here I choose to stay! Yet I'm the first to admit that this society is not perfect - without recognizing the defects, how can we ever choose to correct them? No, we are definitely not alone in committing "dastardly deeds" but if they jump off a bridge, should we do the same? It is some of the very strengths of this country (individual freedom, separation of church and state, freedom of speech)

A: I didn’t think free speech existed in this country anymore. So-called free speech is filtered by SIGs, right?

L: that are also at the core of some of its weaknesses - and if we choose to grow and develop and continue to be a world power, we damn well better get up off of our "holier than thou" podium of supremacy and recognize that the old maxim will hold true - "United we stand - divided we fall!" We are dividing in the pursuit of our search for the so called "politically correct" (Not to mention the politically exploitable!) and the all important "legally indemnifiable!" As some of the posts in this thread have pointed out!

A: What control over US world power do you or I command? The US is right now in the early period of breaking up, following in the footsteps of Rome. What’s right and moral when I grew up doesn’t seem to make any sense any more. I’m a firm believer in the Ten Commandments, All Moses did was break them over a stone. We seem to be p*ssing all over them.

L: The 'me' generation - bah - each generation since the beginning of time has labeled the next and the former with some type of moniker that sets each further apart - more division! But it is only natural. I don't believe that it is so much a result of conditioning to ignore those around us needing help - more of a lack of education!

A: I was a teen in the mid-sixties. The ‘free everything’ was the start of our destruction. Lack of respect and discipline by the multitudes. This ‘free’ attitude is the cause of American liberalism today, and we voted them in, didn’t we, knowing full well their past. That is what gets me down about America. So maybe I am starting to sound a little like Sensei Canna. Ok, I am blushing on this one.

And I read an article in the Boston Globe that suggests this laid-back don’t give a s*it attitude is alive and well and is enjoyed by the multitudes. Somehow the virtues of Respect and Common Decency are taking a back seat, way back, in today's society.

L: I love the words above by Kevin Mackie who is teaching his children to stand up for others - that is education and that is what we need more of!

A: That’s great for Kevin. But how many others are doing likewise? Start at 50% then work up from there? If he thinks everyone’s doing it or if everyone is on his wavelength, then maybe he ‘s got something extra in his pipe.

L:As martial arts instructors we stand in a position to impart some of this philosophy to our students!

A: Here is where the salvation is. We can, and most of us do teach real (our) values to students. However, martial arts instructors, even if all of ‘em taught solid values, are such an infinitesimally small portion of society, and definitely not in the limelight unless an instructor or a student does some crime noteworthy of media mention.


L: I be a small-fry myself - but I'm sorry - I don't feel that the "old school" is dead and gone - it will be alive and well as long as I choose to take up and proudly display it's standard!

A: You are a woman of many virtues, including trying to better the human race and make it more habitable. However, I did not mean to imply ‘dead-and-gone’, merely the numbers are dwindling fast. Rest assured that most Uechiites posses like attitudes but go to the school across the street and spend some time there to open your eyes a little wider.

L: I can only hope to pass it on to my students when the time comes! I have a very, very small dojo - but our numbers are great in the quality of the people within - each and every one of our students is exploring a mind-body-spirit connection - and their numbers are increasing, not dwindling! No mindless aerobics from where I stand!

A: I walked away from our introductions at the summer camp with the attitude you are a woman of impeccable character and deserve high respect as a karate teacher of great value and determination. My hat is off to you.

L: There is hope only as long as we keep it alive!

A: We are a small pebble cast into a large ocean.

Allen


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 1998 8:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 9
Location: Tampa, FL, US
Sorry, but this is gonna be a long one, I am replying to several posts. If this is not martially oriented, neither are the letters I a quoting. There seems to be a lot of stereo-typing and nay-saying going around (I guess this is my two-cents).

Here goes

----responding to post on 10-24 by Tom Paglia----

>normal transgression from DEMOCRACY IS ANARCHY>>

Anarchy is defined as "A state with no government or law". Under old usage it was a utopia where no government was neccessary, under new usage it is entropy.

>the son's of the fathers would forget the price paid in blood and guts to gain democracy and freedom and would become self - centered in there belief's and concerns. The ME concept. You don't have to agree with this. It's a historical fact. >>

"Democracy is the worst form of government imaginable, until you look at the alternatives" Sorry, I cannot quote the author. It is easy to attack something without having to back it up with an alternative. Could you please name a governemnt that did not end in "anarchy"?

Also, not to nit-pick, but I presume you are referencing the US in your predictions. The US is a Republic (government where people are represented by officials) not a Democracy (government where decisions are made by vote of the people).

>coming from a past where in a sense we had no rights we have drifted to over protecting the individuals rights. Keep in mind that in a society the rights of the individual can never out weigh the rights of the society as a whole>>

There is no society as a whole. I am not allowed to shoot my gun, not because it violates the rights of society, but because it violates the rights of other individuals not to be shot at. No offense intended, but your statement seems to be rhetoric.

>So for those who refuse to take a stand welcome to a world of predators Keep practicing you're going to need all the help you can get. >>

Like the gangster era? The wild west? The witch-trials? inqazition? french monarchy? nazis? Stalin? Cambodia circa 1970? Lynch mob era in the south? "Might-makes-right" middle ages [...edited for brevity...]. If your point was that this is something new, I think you are mistaken, at least they aren't government sanctioned.

----responding to post on 10-24 by Anthony----

>It has been my observation that nature when deciding to eliminate a species finds new and innovative ways to cause it to implode upon itself, not unlike the way we blow the bottom out of buildings on city blocks.>>

The dodo and Great Awk were hunted to extention. That while moth in England (can't remember the species) died because the smoke from smokestacks changed the color of the trees and birds found them easy targets. I don't remember the Tazmanian tiger "imploding". Could you please back your statement with an example?

>The best defense is not being there.>>

I agree wholeheartedly.

----responding to post on 10-24 by Van Canna----


>The American problem is that ,but for lack of attuned emotions , perspectives are in constant jumble !>>

Thanks for the sterio-type. BTW, if you want to see perspectives that don't change try an insane asylum or religious instatution.

>Now as to football and soccer games incidents here and abroad ! The violence in soccer , although deplorable ,GENERALLY WITH FEW EXECEPTIONS, is tied to nationalism and the triggering mechanism for it speaks volumes of the pride of the fans , who in their minds , are fighting a foreign force which threatens their territorial soccer standing in the world !>>

So uneccessary and useless violence is OK if it's for nationalism? I think that was the Nazi excuse. Would they still do it if there was one vs. 10? People seem to like to hurt, but not risk being hurt. It is rare for one person to say "I am mistreated" and go riot alone in the street. But if other's are rioting, it is easy to suddenly have "righteous indignation" and kill for a cause.

>You see violence in Italy/Europe ..violence is everywhere ..but you will never see this childish display of emotion among neighbors ..because the Italians possess a much more attuned 'emotional intelligence' >>

Yea, while we are on steirotypes, I remember the mob as being very "enlightened". WW2 was cool too.

>You won't see the ' biker ' subculture with fat slobs on Harleys who think they can ride a bike >>

Italians are not fat slobs, only Americans? They win all the olympics because of the I am sure.

>European stylish motorcycles and elegant riders who maneuver on a dime in heavy traffic and move like the wind at warp speed ! this is the difference of STYLE I often talk about !>>

ESPN has none of those.

>And this under-developed 'emotional intelligence' in Americans is responsible for what you talk about on this post , i.e., Me first and always >>

I am amazed you don't see the hyprocacry in the "You Americans are snobs, not like us". I haven't seen Europe be big in playing humanitarian to the world. They don't put an incredable amount into the UN, or WMO. But, maybe I haven't been paying enough attention.

>I feel like splitting his head open with an ax and stuffing his empty skull with empathy for his fellow man ! >>

Sounds empathing to me!

----responding to post on 10-25 by Hutch----

>In the 50's qnd 60's, the hero culture was enormous. >>

At what cost, we tend to deify people that would be better classed as villans, or just people (Custard, McCarthy, Hoover).

>But the concepts of nobility and honour, while lagging, have not been lost. >>

I think historians, and people, idealize their memory. It wasn't there before any more than now.

>I refuse to despair about the state of society. I cannot live anybody else's life; just my own. When I do it right, I make courageous choices and when I am wrong, it is usually because I acted out of fear. I am still learning the difference, but I know helping others is rarely a wrong choice if your goal is to have a healthy and worthy spirit. >>

A rowdy "hear hear" to that.

----responding to post on 10-27 by Van Canna----

>To the Italians , the world is a stage on which to play out individual emotion and establish personal /private priorities and the hell with government of any kind …social standards of any kinds …to the Italians , government is a corrupt entity to be used to its fullest ! >>

The Itallians ARE the Itallian government. So to say the government is corrupt is to say the people are. Further, to ignore teh government they create is anarchy (earlier post) and very indicative of a "Me" generation as you complane is prevelant in America.

>You want more? How about this : There was a time when "mom" was always there ..the words "day care" were not in our vocabulary and welfare was called "relief" !>>

About the same time europe called war "policy" and murder a "solution".

>…American college graduates have shown to be intellectually inferior to the European counterparts …..>>

Yea, the Eorpeans invented all the cool stuff, and their GNP is 1/4 ours.

>Our clothes were clean and stylish , and we wore our caps with the brim in front to shield our eyes from the sun , as they were designed ! >>

If the grease in the hair would let you.

>We looked up to Ike and John as leaders to be admired>>

Slept with Marlyn, manged the bay of pigs without getting impeached, got credited after death for human rights movements he had almost nothing to do with, escilated involvement in Vietnam when the French moved out, and nearly got us all killed over cuba. Great guy (I look up to him over the Marlyn thing though).

>convicted murderess were executed promptly instead of languishing in prison for years on hand on death row filing appeal after appeal !>>

So were "commies" and blacks (japaneese we just interred).

>When tragedy struck , we dried our tears , stuck out our chin and went on with life instead of beating our breasts and holding countless memorial services seeking psychologists to tell us how to cope ! Newspapers presented both sides of an issue without political slant >>

What!?! What country where you living in?

>Today thoughts and actions are suppressed for fear being politically incorrect >>

Rush? Howard Stern? Me? you?

>our courts are clogged up with so many frivolous law suits >>

>no one is held responsible for his actions >>

Seems your first statemnt is that we attempt to hold someone responsable for everything.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 1998 12:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
Tensin, Two cents? Wow. Have you met Van yet? I think he's headed to your house now. This should get the thread and replies up.
Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 1998 1:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 671
Tensin, It's great that you have the courage to speak up when you feel wronged or insulted. It may be wise in future posts (if any) to temper your comments with some common sense however. A lot of participants here have strong convictions and loyalty to their country be it Canada, Italy, or the US. Slamming their beliefs as you have done does not make for productive dialog and will certainly invite provocation from others.

Van as moderator of this group holds a personal responsibility for the success of the group. He may seem at times autocratic in nature, but he speaks from years of experience and does invite all relevant comments.

This is not to imply that disagreement is verbotten. These are real discussions. No one should be intimidated by the strong feelings of a participant or the laeder for that matter. Disagree at will!

You're new to the group and there are little to no rules here; don't pick on spelling and grammar, personal attacks are unwelcome, provide back up with obscure information, with stuff like that.

So, at times like these, sit back, reflect, examine, analyse, and then respond with conviction, fervor, AND consideration.

VTY

Kevin


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 1998 2:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 9
Location: Tampa, FL, US
Anthony,

I do not consider myself or humanity exempt from survival of the fittest. I am sorry if I implyed I did. You said that species tend to implode (self-destruct). I countered that, for the ones I knew, they tended to die for a failure to adapt or from being out compeated (the otter population in alaska is in danger now because the seal population is low and killer whales have taken to eating otters).

If I do seperate mankind from the rest of the animal kingdom, it is only to say that we may be the first (to my knowledge) who actually does kill itself off.

Sincerely Gerald


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 1998 2:35 pm 
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Posts: 9
Location: Tampa, FL, US
Kevin (and all)

I apologize if I came across insulted or insulting. I was not insulted, and did not intend to be insulting. There are 3 major things that "get me on my soapbox"... When someone quotes "rhetoric", when someone makes statments I find hypocritical, or when someone says "society these days". All of these happened and I responded.

My intention is discussion. I accept that what I say may be wrong and that mine is not the only opinion (I hope we all accept that about ourselves). I did not intend to slam any beliefs, though I admit to slamming a few (or more than a few) comments.

Normally I prefer more detailed and dispassionate responses, but there was so much material I felt I should respond to that it would have taken all day (and more space than I would care to mention) to make a more detailed argument.

On martial arts (as related to mindset and the ugly american), I don't think that people are overly less prone to jump to the aid of others than they were before. In America at least, civil liability has discouraged some, espically professionals (doctors, security workers, etc.) but this is much more specific to area than country.

I saw ans experiment on the Discovery channel once where they had an actor collapse in the middle of the street. They tried it in a crowded city (2 or 3 differnt places) and most people just walked around him. They tried it in a town and people were offering help almost immediately. I think that people are people, and communitys make the people, not the continent.

My humble opinion, Gerald

[This message has been edited by tensin (edited 11-04-98).]


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 1998 6:35 pm 
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Location: Boca Raton, FL
Van, et al,

Just as the heat is getting turned up and the future of the slavanian dinkle-dork is in question, this thread is becoming quite unwieldly. I would recommend closing it and continuing on "Part Deux."


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 1998 7:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 61
Location: dartmouth, ns canada
Hello Hutch, Van, et al-

I laughed out loud when I read Hutch’s post to Doctor X about how to get 50 Canadians out of the pool. It’s so true. I hope no one minds if I post this here-I figured a little levity couldn’t hurt.


WHAT IS A CANADIAN ??????

> >> If you remark how warm it is, now that salt melts the ice...you might be a Canadian.

> >> If you think it might be inappropriate, to bring a firearm to the mall...you might be a Canadian.


> >> If you can correctly pick out your country, on a world map...you might be a Canadian.

> >> If you suntan, while keeping your beer cold in the snowbank...you might be a Canadian.

> >> If you think gravy and cheese curds, poured over french fries is a wholesome lunchtime snack...you might be a Canadian.

> >> If being unemployed, means you can afford a satellite dish, a new car, health insurance and two annual vacations...you might be a
Canadian.

> >> If you drink your tap water...you might be a Canadian.

> >> If you've actually made love in a canoe...you might be a Canadian.


> >> If you budget 5% of your net income on mosquito repellant...you might be a Canadian.

> >> If you look at your paycheque, in terms of what the government
"left for you" this week... you might be a Canadian.

> >> If you can't talk about temperatures with your parents, without a calculator...you might be a Canadian.


> >> If you stumble over the words to your national anthem at hockey games...you might be a Canadian.

> >> If you deliberately don't read one half of a sign on the
highway...you might be a Canadian.

> >> If you have ever taken a snowmobile to the store, in May...you
might be a Canadian.


I guess I should mention that I am a Canadian, and proud of it.

Regards,

Natalie

ps to Hutch- what dojo do you work out at? I am in Cole Harbour.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 1998 9:08 pm 
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Posts: 671
Natalie- I'm from the Boston area. Once timewhile on business in Halifax in the middle of February, I walked about a mile from a waterfront hotel to a downtown pub to meet an old friend for a few beers. Now that's a Canadian! My mother was from Kingston and my great-great uncle was Sir John A. MacDonald himself!

Kevin


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