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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 6:11 am 
Street Fighting Crap

I know that many out there have given up on buying Martial Arts magazines, I still buy a few, but most often only for a specific article.

I recently picked up INSIDE KUNG FU December 1998. There were a couple of articles I wanted to read and they were pretty good. However, there was one "Bruce Lee’s Streetfighting Secrets" by Tom Cruse. Not the actor, a JKD student of Paul Vunak’s.

Side Bar: Now, I like JKD and a great deal of Mr. Lee’s work so this is not a comment on either. I have some video tapes of Mr. Vunak’s and he seems to have talent. I find him hard to take because he slams every other style in existence and doesn't seem to know anything about them or much of Mr. Lee’s comments. For example when promoting using focus gloves he slams using a makawari because it cannot move and therefore will not improve speed and timing. Bruce Lee promotes the use of a makawari when you want to condition your weapons -- the purpose it was designed for.

Anyway, these folks basically claim to be just about the only ones to be able to teach you for the reality of the street. The text of the article is not that bad. It is the pictures on page 74 depicting a "street" response to an attack that I have a problem with.

It shows Mr. Cruse intercepting an attack with a clothesline move, then slipping behind to place a sleeper hold on the attacker. Okay. BUT THEN, he releases the choke to sweep the attacker’s leg out from under him, and then stomp on the back of his knee to take him right to the ground, and then slip behind him (again), and then put a sleeper hold on him (again)!

He has him in a sleeper hold only to let him go so that he can take him to the ground to put another one on him? I mean if he really wanted to go to the ground (in a street fight?) why not just drop at the first one.

But then they are the street fight experts, I don’t claim to be one, so what do I know. Maybe this guy could kick my ass, but it doesn't change the fact that that page is ....

There is just so much crap out there it is no wonder people don't know what is what.

Rick


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 11:37 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 75
Rick San,

Well stated. The credibility of the Arts often lay with the more verbal practicans, which in turn are the least qualified.

Evan Pantazi


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 2:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 9
Location: Tampa, FL, US
I try to be careful of believing or doubting to easily. I agree that there is a lot of half-baked ideas going around. Sometimes the instructor doesn't know any better, sometimes he doesn't want to show others any better. I have even been cought with things that looked silly on their face, but were very effective (as I found out after asking and having demonstrated).

I for one frown on choke holds, they leave either your eyes or groin vunerable to attacks and tie up your hands.


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
The whole thing sounds a little too complicated to me. I'd have left it at a choke hold, or just throw the guy on the ground and stomp him if you have time to do all of that.

But if I may integrate some of the knowledge I've learned from reading this forum: the takedown(s) sound like they rely on too much FINE MOTOR SKILLS, and/or has too many movements which will be easily forgotten under stress.

But hey, who am I, I'm just a student, right??

Thanks, Tensin, for the caveat on sleeper holds. Gives me something to think about and/or work out.

Cecil , the sometimes questioning, sometimes commenting, always thinking, maybe too much at times!!!


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 4:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Personally, I don't think choke holds are
so bad. The problem I see with any kind
of hold is the threat of multiple opponents.
A good choke hold is extremely
difficult to escape from in the limited
amount of time you have before you strength
is exhausted.

The key to the choke hold is to get the
person down on the ground. The way this
article suggested in plain foolishness ...
once I got my hold why would I let it go???
Rather try this. After wrapping you arm
around the throat and securing the back of
the head with your other arm (classic rear choke hold ... technique name escapes me)
push with your elbow towards you and down
(i.e. through them). At the same time,
move your right leg back and go down on
your right knee. Bend your left leg to
90 degree (don't go down on your knee) so
you are know in a one legged kneel position
and pull your opponent back into your left
leg (not so much your knee but the side of
your leg). If they try to rise you can drop
them back down again by pushing down with
your elbow (they have no balance while they
rise). If you can get them to this position
AND they have no friends around it is
definitely all over. The only thing that
occasionally works is to try to shuto your
hands into the "v" of the choking arm and
try to break the grip but this usually only
works if they guy isn't gripping very tight.
When it is put on hard I have never been able
to get out, or see anybody else get out.
Kind of strange to explain, but it is simpler
than it sounds. Again, any hold is dangerous
on the street because who knows if he has a
buddy near by or not.

Mind you. Usually if I could have landed
a choke hold I could have landed an uppercut
or a cross to the chin or temple and followed up with a few more punches afterwards, so if push comes to shove, I think I would go with the punches.

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 8
Location: castle rock,washington
Hey Rick, I can tell you from experience,that is not what JFJKD(or whatever people want to call it) is about.For me it is learning about yourself and finding something that fits you and works for you.The only complicated thing about it is it is simple and direct and I make it hard by complicateing itLOL.There is no room for slamming arts or people,my art is better than yours,or hate,I dont believe thats what Bruce was about and it makes me sad that so many people are out there misrepresenting what he stood for.I have not seen Paul V.tapes nor do I know any thing of him so I dont have an opinion about him.
There is a really cool news letter out called"Knowing is not enough"and it is put out by the Jun Fan Jeet kune Do Nucleus,it is a group of people including Linda Lee to preserve Bruse`s art.It has wonderful information and great articals!If you would like information on how to get this you can E-mail me at Vern@cport.com and I will let you know.I just wanted you to know there are some really great guys and gals out there willing to show you(and let you feel) what they have learned,not show you how wonderful they are or how useless other peoles arts are.AFor me,that is what makes all of them so special! Mavourneen


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 635
Location: Johnston, RI
Rick,
I have not seen the copy of IKF that you mention. Like all arts JKD has its share of arrogance. In fact, as a JKD instructor myself, I can say we have MORE than our share of arrogant people. I have all of Vunaks videos (except the most recent ones) and all I can tell you is to apply one of the philosophies of JKD.....use the stuff you like, forget the stuff you don't. It will help you get past statements about the makiwaras and people who slam all the arts that they have never studied. Or maybe they studied for a little while.
And not all JKD people claim to be the experts of self defense. I belong to a great association with lots of open minded humble people in it. One of the ideas behind the art is that it always be evolving to accomadate modern times.
I totally agree that it is silly to let go of someone you have in a secure choke. Kind of like disarming a knife and then throwing it back to you assailant!
Best wishes,
Raffi


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 9:41 pm 
To All:

Just a short note to reiterate that I have great respect for JKD and many of those who practices it. I, like many, have learned a lot from reading Bruce Lee's works. I only mentioned the JKD part because the article presents itself as Bruce Lee's streetfighting JKD secrets etc. My post was not to comment on JKD but on the proliferation of material that presents crap. This article could have been written by a practitioner of any style, it just happened to have been JKD and a student of a person I knew a tiny bit about.

So, again, I have learned a great deal from reading good JKD material, just as I have learned from read good Brand X material.

Rick


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 1998 11:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 8
Location: castle rock,washington
Rick,
I never took your post like you were showing disrespect,I thought you were just stateing a fact that there is so much junk it is hard to see what is what,I agree with you 100%.I just wanted to let you know that not all who study JFJKD are (how should I put this...)CRAZY!OK,OK,maybe a little twisted.LOL!


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 1998 5:44 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
Thanks Howdy (Anthony), Glad I already ate lunch.


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 1998 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 9
Location: Tampa, FL, US
Jason,

The hold you describe seems well thought out. It still seems that your victim has a good opportunity to stick a finger or three in your eye-socket in the 20sec or so before unconciousness sets in.

Where I train, we have a few principles we try to adhere to with all grapples. The first is that the grapple should take one second or less, any longer and it is likeley your opponent can manuver to make your grapple impossible. Secondly, we like to do the damage immediately (break the arm/neck/etc) on the premise that either the opponent can escape from the grapple, make you let go, or you will want to let go to get another/deal with his friends/escape.

JMHO, Gerald


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 1998 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Tensin,

It is one of Shihan's favorites. He is a
federal penitentiary guard and well, you know
how things are for the good guys. Not
allowed to bust people up anymore so he has
to settle for some grapples sometimes.

We tried to get our hands back there to
poke the eye and we couldn't. If you turn
your head to the side and down it is pretty
impossible once you are down (well, maybe not
impossible but I haven't seen anybody show me
how yet). Now when you are standing, I agree
wholeheartedly although it still isn't easy
(again turning your head to the side and
down).

The only "escape" we have been able to come
up with is to desperately try to go for
pressure points on the hand or wrist of the
wrapping arm. Sometimes you may get lucky.
Very very tricky to do while your strength
is rapidly fading. The other defense is
to go to strong sanchin... lower your tanden
to keep yourself from going down ... break
the grip ... and pray a little helps. Life
gets rough when your opponent gets behind
you and has an arm wrapped around your
throat.

I tend to agree about your principles of
grappling. I treat grappling as a
tool to an end. That end is dealing damage
preferably crippling to the opponent. If
I put you in an arm lock it won't be for
long. Just long enough in fact to twist you
over and elbow your face, or kick your leg
out, etc. And again, often I find that
if I could have done the grapple and strike
I probably could have hit with just the
strike. Where we train we teach a few
submission grapples (like the choke I
described) where you may not be allowed to injure your opponent (we train several police officers and other penitentiary
guards), other than that we teach mainly
counter-grappling ... which is to say
grappling with the intent of getting back
to the Kyokushin game plan, not grappling to
win outright.

Basically, grappling is complex. It is a
complete art/science in and of itself. I
believe it can be effective as self defense
but you have to be devoted to it. Just like
you must be devoted to kicking/striking for
it to be effective. When I do my mindset
training I rarely think much about grappling
because I know objectively that I am not
good enough to rely on remembering all the
intricate details when my heart if beating
300 bps and my vision is narrowed to just
my opponent (at least 20% of the time in the
dojo my uke will tell me it isn't working ...
not great odds for me if I were to rely on
grappling on the street. I never have
somebody tell me that when I kick them in
the legs it doesn't hurt ... those are the
odds I like. Image ).

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 1998 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Greg,

20 seconds is definitely too long for a well
applied choke. But 3 seconds? Maybe
sometimes, seems somewhat short to me.
I think in the 3-5 seconds range your
strength starts to fade, but your not quite
out. 5-7 seconds you will definitely be
seeing those nice purple and black spots (not a good thing). 8-12 seconds you are out.
Shihan usually says about 10 seconds to put
somebody out for sure. Maybe I misunderstood
your message and you meant after 3 seconds
your odds of getting out drastically decrease
to which I greatly agree, but 3 seconds to
blackness?

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 1998 11:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 29, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 204
Jason,

Your description was much more exact than mine... I would agree that it does take longer than three to be totally out, but in my experience (albeit limited in terms of being choked totally out) I would put the 'spots' around the 3-5 second mark. As always, this is situational and depends upon many factors. Given the potential for damage to the carotid sinus etc. I for one am not willing to be the uke who volunteers for the time trials! Nevertheless, my underlying point is that the process is extremely quick, and much shorter than most people are led to believe given media portrayals of the hero struggling along for a while while being subjected to an apparently well applied choke, only to throw off his assailant and proceed to knock hell out of him.

greg


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 Post subject: Street Fighting Crap
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 1998 12:08 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2
Location: Evansville, IN, Canada
Greg,

Your point is well taken. Speaking of
heroic comebacks ... my favorite in the
movies is when somebody gets thrown HARD
into a brick wall or even better through
a window or windshield and just keeps coming
(often without a mark on them).

Osu!
Jason


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