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Mas Ayoob , of lethal force institute is fond of saying that when you are about to enter a confrontation , you must survive two potential deadly enemies ; the punk assaulting you and then his mouthpiece[lawyer] ! It is really true what they teach in law school : if the law is on your side , argue the law ! If the facts are on your side , argue the facts! When neither the law nor the facts are on your side , assassinate the character of the witness !

In civil litigation , if you have minimum damages to your client , then argue the liability ; if you have questionable liability and pretty good damages , then by all means , argue damages !

Then you have to fight the jury ..usually made up of men and women, most of whom hate guns and karate people because they associate them with violence ! And they are easily manipulated , if you can get them to pay attention !

And then there is the judge …usually a political appointee who is not subject to the same social conditions you and I are --[Mas] ! From the safety of his bench , he will be telling you the situation did not warrant the force you used!

Say you have the truth , the law and the facts on your side when you either shot or slammed your attacker [if you are lucky] ..now you are almost assured of an assassination attempt on your character ! And now watch those closet skeletons come tumbling out with a clatter !

Remember that in North America the law abiding citizen is punished by society when he successfully defends himself !



But , to a certain extent , you can survive this , if you keep your head , and always tell the truth ..when it is safe for you to speak ..never speak in the aftermath of violence to police or anyone unless you have consulted your own mouthpiece !

Even in the courtroom you must follow the fundamental rule of self defense : Be able to predict where the attack will come from , and have a proven counter in place !

Van Canna

Law abiding citizen, North America?

Land of punish the innocent and reward the guilty.

Good morning again Van,
I hosted an Asset Protection Seminar, Saturday and I found out that the United States of America is the only country in the world where contingency fees are allowed.? Makes a situation hard to defend if you have any assets.
Mike

J.D. -san ,

Always good to hear from you ! Enjoyed your recent visit to the hut in Newton , and I must say I was impressed with your strong performance , both in Kata and sparring !

You wrote "The sad case you cite in the
other thread makes me wonder if your friend could "beat up da
guys" and save himself and his daughter, he would still get sued.
The suit may be frivolous, but the fees to the lawyers are not.

Now thoroughly depressed"

Yes , very depressing ! But consider the alternative !

In this case , as in every self defense situation, you face criminal and civil exposure ! If you acted reasonably , you may not be charged at all by the district's attorney's office or indicted by a grand jury ! So no money out of your pockets !

You will still be sued if you are perceived to have deep pockets , but if you have an umbrella liability policy , it will pick up the cost of defense and indemnity !

Mike ,

It is not all over unless you want it to be ! What my friend did , was to tell his daughter to run away ; he then positioned himself between the punks and his fleeing daughter ; pulled a .38 special from his fanny pack , held it angled down in a two handed grip , right finger outside the trigger guard ; and gave strong verbal commands sending the signal he would use the gun if they went after his daughter !! The punks must have thought he meant business as they stammered , got back into the jeep and took off !

Van Canna

Van,

With due respects, Van, it sounds like the punks could have been sober, i.e. neither high nor intoxicated and looking for a rush. Even they can exhibit mild forms of common sense when their senses are not dulled.

Allen

Hello JD. I just wish sometime that right makes might instead of the other way around. Allen

JD, keep ranting, your thoughts and observations on the subjects posted here are priceless! (don't send a bill)

I was intrigued by the setting "mental distance" to prepare yourself mentally for a defense. The mental aspects of self defense are somewhat lacking in our dojo.
Kata, Kumite, Kata, Kumite... hey what about mind set?? This is why I come here to this cyber dojo, to learn what I cannot learn elsewhere. (I think I could use a night out in Brockton)

VTY

Kevin

J. D. & Allen ,

I wrote "Then one night you are walking the beach with your daughter ,
enjoying the sunset , alone and far from anyone who can help ,
when a jeep full of punks pulls up at your heels ; beer bottles /cans
are being thrown at you …and one of them says : " Hey , what are
you up to ? Are you going to f*** her ? Why don't we start it for
you while you watch !" >>>>>> You really believe your 'karate' will save you from a senseless beating , or worse, and your daughter from being
raped by the drunken scum now getting out of their cars with beer
bottles and a baseball bat? [ five big guys , looking like body
builders] !"

You two wrote "With due respects, Van, it sounds like the punks could have been
sober, i.e. neither high nor intoxicated and looking for a rush. Even
they can exhibit mild forms of common sense when their senses are
not dulled." [ Allen]

"As the advocatus diaboli, I could wonder if your friend could have
scared away "da punks" with a determined stare and posture which
would convey the "this is not an easy prey" idea. Perhaps, these
were the type of losers who just, that night, wanted to feel big and
feed on fear. Perhaps they would have been satisfied with seeing
your friend and daughter whimpering or fleeing. >>>> I
do think, to argue in the other direction, that we need some
compassion. Anyone can get drunk, angry, and staunch their
hemorrhaging ego by trying to act big on the street. We see it all
the time. I do not think we should just blow them away." [J. D.]

Are you two guys kidding ? Not drunk? Looking for a rush ? The language they used? They are now out their car with a baseball bat and beer bottles moving in on you and your daughter ! You want to show them compassion? You have at best ¾ of a second to react ! Are you going to gamble with the life or well being of your daughter? What do you think their intent is based on pre-incident indicators and assault cues you are receiving ? What about "precognition" or have you forgotten about this legal principle ? Do you realize that you are being threatened with superior force , superior numbers,[ disparity of force] --and with deadly weapons [ bat -beer bottles ?] >>>

It is the failure to read the impending threat that results in hesitation giving the physical and [worse] the psychological advantage to your enemy-- Who will read you very well ! These are the lessons you learn at the lethal force institute designed to inculcate a certain mindset and trigger by recognizing the pre-assault cues and pre-incident indicators for what they really are instead of guessing at them !

As Kevin says >> in the dojo …kata ..kumite..kata..kumite --- most of us train at dancing lessons [ should wear a hat, seam stockings and high heels in your next workout] ---Animal Mac Young writes that most martial artists are nothing more than dancers lacking street wise knowledge , determination and commitment ; they are not really trained to seize immediate control of an unfolding ugly situation [ denial again …belief in the good of fellow man ] !

The average martial artist is rooted in blocking mind set ..he is used in "fighting" for points , not for his life ! He will argue that not all confrontations will be serious or life threatening , thereby sealing his doom ! He does not have the direction of spirit to automatically defeat the opposition upon serious transgression [ MacYoung] !

A certain attitude and resolve needs to be projected early on in a confrontation matching the threat with equal force , slap for slap , kick for kick and weapon for deadly weapon ! Your body language will do you in most of the times ! In spite of their training , most martial artists are left only with moves , pretty much useless without a schooled tactical mindset ! Look at yourself in the mirror and argue the point in all honesty ! But you will rationalize all of this away , I know , and you will continue to fall victim to a real attack other than a simple face slapping contest with an unworthy opponent !

Back to the impending assault on the beach , common sense should tell you that what will determine your degree of legal response will be a mixture of actions on your part and theirs . Yes it is a good idea to beg off and retreat , but from the tactical standpoint you are at a disadvantage ; they are close enough to grab your daughter ; overpower you very quickly !

Yeah , from a moral standpoint , it may really be that the punks intend to only to show off at your expense , but it is also reasonable to assume that their wanton troublemaking may precede a more serious expression of terrorism . You should be sure of the real danger before deciding to employ a deadly weapon against multiple antagonists whose motives are uncertain …[coming at you with a bat and beer bottles not very clear to you ?] >>>>

But let me ask you ..what would you have done differently with your daughter at stake ? You know , the old Monday morning quarterbacking ; that's exactly how you would behave if you sat on a jury without the experience of the stress of the moment ! Will you be a victim or a survivor ? How to find out >>> What you are really made of when the flag flies ?

I can tell you if anyone should even hint at moving against my daughter , as MacYoung says , it is combat with no rules ! Fight to the death or the crippling of the opponents , with a mind set of total disregard for personal injury and consequences !

In my work I handle rape cases ..do you know what rape does to the mind of a woman ? Anyone who threatens the rape of my daughter forfeits his right to live ! If you don't develop this type of mind-set you will always be the victim despite your high dan rank and all the special classes you attended by the "masters" !!

Van Canna

Your on a beach alone with your daughter when five big, armed guys get out stating they intend to rape her in front of you. And the question is? I have no idea if I could actually handle the situation but I know I side with Van Sensei on this one. If I couldn't talk out of it, lethal force is the only response.

In reading the posts I assumed (and would hope) J.D. was not referring to this situation when he spoke of compassion.

Rick

Rick,

You don't know how you would handle the situation? Don't even think about it. Mother nature takes command of you when your children are in danger.

Allen


[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 12-09-98).]

Van,

In the "In due respects" response, my thoughts were that if the punks were drinking or on drugs they may not have been straight enough to consider the handgun as a threat even if he had shot one.

Allen

More on the Mother Nature issue...

Being a parent is an amazing part of life. Those who have missed out on it cannot begin to know the bond between parent and child. The fact that a parent can recognize their child's scream of delight or anguish from among a multitude of children in a playground is as primal and instinctive as that of the penguin who can readily pick out the cry of its offspring from that of thousand of others. We share some of the same genes as these and other non human creatures, probably even the genes that encode our child's voice into the inner most depths of our consciousness.

The bond is deep and strong.

This is why most parent will not hesitate to run into a burning building or jump between crazed pit bulls to rescue a child. These parents are not fireproof nor do they possess skin of chain mail, yet they do not hesitate to act. These acts happen all the time, sometimes even with positive outcomes.

Likewise, if a child is surrounded by a gang of burley, drunken slobs intent on doing harm, most if not all parents would jump in to protect that child with whatever means possible. There is no thought to one's own safety, just a primal instinct to protect our own.

It's obvious thought that being prepared for these situations with a weapon and the determination to use it greatly increases your odds of survival. Lucky for the victims.

VTY

Kevin

Allen,

At the risk of going off on a tangent, or being nitpicky, I think we all need to be careful about the words we choose...

You wrote:

" '...do you know what rape does to the mind of a woman ?' I know what it does.It destroys them forever."

I too have had people who were/are close to me victimized in many ways. The effect on the "victim" is a profound one, and one that takes a great deal of time, energy, and help from which to recover. But people do in fact recover. I assume that you were trying to caution people not to underestimate the impact of such trama on individuals who are victimized. To say, however, that they are 'destroyed forever,' runs the risk of negating the hard work that many trauma survivors have done, and continue to do on a daily basis to continue to survive and live rewarding lives. This, in part is why rape counseling centers refer to those who have been raped as "survivors" rather than "victims." The latter defines the individual only as someone who has had something terrible done to them, the former may also describe their approach to life post trauma. (sorry about that soapbox!)

greg

That's ok, Greg, I appreciate your input and I will be more careful of my selection of words in the future on this forum so as to not offend anyone.

Are you the same Greg I know at the Hut?

Allen

[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 12-09-98).]

Allen,

Yes and no. Same person, but a *whole lot* more stressed out (currently at work...). Right about now, Wednesdays and Saturdays are about all that's keeping me sane!

greg