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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 1998 3:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 203
Location: Florida
Several years ago my family and I visited some friends who live near the nation's capitol. We visited D.C. one day and chose to park outside the city in an Arlington, VA or such suburb in the subway station parking garage. At 9:00 am, it seemed OK.

But after a very long and exhausting day with my family and friends, and returning at 9:00 pm, it was NOT OK. As we departed from the train and began our trek to the car, we realized just how late it was and how few cars there were. OOPS

As we closed in on our car, perhaps 50 yards away, we noticed a group of black youths suddenly tuck into the garage from an outside door. It seemd like 12, but it was probably more like 7-8. As we approached each other, time slowed and my mind began to race through a solution.(My hands and feet are getting jittery just writing this!) I now realize I was making swift and primal decisions almost unconciously. The youths were very young and all had their hands loosely by their sides(No apparent weapons)

1st, I stepped to the end of our group closest to the passing point of the gang and edged more space between us.

Next we spread our group out a little so that we could not be easily corraled. I made eye contact and briskly without hurrying lead us back to the car. As we passed I turned to be able to monitor them. I gave the car keys to my 16 year old and told her and the 2 oldest boys to run and open the van quickly, get in and lock the doors and ready the car.

As we got to the car the gang group began laughing and sauntered on out of the garage as if it was all a big joke. Let's mess with some folks minds! They did!

We quickly drove out, all chattering. I paid close attention to our exit and manuevered briskly. No one appeared to follow and we got back on the expressway.

We had about 5-10 seconds to assess the sitution and respond! Either the gang was not really intending harm, or they had gone fishing and passed on us. We did not freeze, we showed a lack of fear to some degree, we reacted pretty quickly and decisively. I will tell you this, next time I visit DC, I will select a better parking area and get back before dark. Plan ahead and stay alert.



JohnC





[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited 12-10-98).]


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 1998 6:30 am 
Hello john.

Isn't DC the crime capital of the world? I wonder if those kids either jumped someone or vandalized cars by the time they went home.

Allen


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 1998 10:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2073
Location: Boston, MA
John,

There were too many of them. Nothing like a Tuesday quarterback... If I were with my family, I would have headed back into the station where there are train personnel (unless this was a commuter line). If I were with some friends I trust in that kind of situation, maybe, we would continue heading to the car.

That kind of situation is very volatile. Is not like everyone in that group is acting in unison. Maybe most of them are out just cruising around. However, if one or more were interested in a little action and started it, then likely all of them would have gotten into it.

david


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 1998 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 203
Location: Florida
Allen:

I'm pretty sure they were up to absolutely no good, I just got lucky.


David:

Good points, however, the station was an unmanned point and we were closer to the car than the station by the time we could react. However, retreating was definitely an alternative that should have been taken if possible.

The thing was we did what AAA and all the pundits suggested - we parked outside of D.C. and rode the train. This may have given us a false sense of security. BTW, the train at that late hour, while crowded, did have quite a few unsavory charactors. I'll never assume anything ever again!


JohnC


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 1998 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
John C,

I think that you were being paranoid about this situation. I really can't see a bunch of BLACK children attacking anyone NON-BLACK in ARLINGTON of all places unless they are just the DUMBEST kids on Planet Earth. The cops would be all over them like a swarm of locusts. Northern Virginia doesn't play, and we who live around here know this.

First off, I think that if the kids really were up to no good, they would have been on quick, fast, and in a hurry. Secondly, I know why they laughed at you: having generated the same reaction from people myself, both as a kid and now as an adult, I used to laugh as a kid as a nervous reaction to someone else's panic and paranoia: they, being Black and in that particular state, in that part of the metropolitan area and that neighborhood (I used to live there, I have a pretty good idea which station it is) would be in more danger than you, should push come to shove and the law gets involved. I'm sure had a cop come upon the scene the law would have been on your side, rightly or wrongly; the kids would have been guilty until proven innocent. Trust me, they were not messing with your mind. I've been one of them. I will, however, warn you, that if you are walking around like a scared bunny rabbit giving off MAJOR fear signals, someone with a sadistic streak is going to pick up on it and yell "BOO!!", just to see how high you can jump! (I've seen that too. I should not have laughed, but hey, I was a kid and didn't know better). Now when I see people giving me the "scaredy" vibe or looking as though they are trying to put me on notice that they know I'm there, I either smile and say hello, walk around them or ignore them.

DC has a lot of crime, but it's usually confined to the CITY OF WASHINGTON, not the suburbs. I've never heard of tourists being robbed, particularly a whole entire family, in these parts. Most of the crime down here is done either by one crook against another, or by a crook taking advantage of some resident who doesn't have the resources to move.The only innocents I hear about being killed a lot are DC RESIDENTS being hit by a stray bullet. The innocents I've SEEN being hurt, uncommonly, are COURIERS TRYING TO BREAK THE LAWS OF TRAFFIC, AND HOMELESS PEOPLE BEING THE VICTIM OF HIT AND RUNS, AND POLICE BRUTALITY. Arlington is pretty safe, as far as I know, for most residents and tourists (99.99999%), particularly near the metro lines.

The AAA people that told you to part out in the 'burbs and metro into DC are just trying to save you from the outlandish parking fees inside the city hotels. My advice to you is to PAY THE OUTLANDISH FEES AT THE PARKING GARAGES IN THE HOTELS. Find a place that's 24 hours, and located in the Northwest part of town, near the business areas. Even though they claim no responsibility for articles left in the car, etc., I've yet to have anything done to my car or me when I've gone there after nine at night to get my ride. It'll cost you, but a trip to the emergency room or a new car to replace the stolen one will cost you more. The highest fee I've ever seen is $25 dollars for a 24 hour period. I'm sure you won't have to pay that much. Rush hour ends around 7 or 8 pm, so if you insist on parking in the 'burbs, be back by then to ensure that they'll be plenty of witnesses.

Don't believe the images that the television is giving of the District and it's youth, particularly the black ones. Tourists are safe. And, incidently, most DC youth from the 'hood don't think there is a world outside of the city. Those were probably some suburban kids on their way to Pentagon City to catch a movie. Which, by the way, Pentagon City is an EXECELLENT place to park.

Cecil


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 1998 3:40 pm 
Hello Cecil.

Your post was very informative to me about what to expect in that geographical location and also about what goes on in the mind of youngsters congregating such as that particular group was. I don't know anything about Arlington therefore wrote a general opinion. I considered the group to be collectively like a dog or a shark in the sense that chances are nothing is going to happen but you can't trust that chance.

However I'd like to ask you if you think a group of kids, forget the color, continually taunts adults on the street, then could they themselves get braver and more aggressive as their experience builds until they cross a line and do something outwardly stupid?

About the car parking... On several occasions I have preferred to drive into Boston and park right inside a hotel parking garage as opposed to riding the train into town then walking. At least some hotels in this city, even though you may not be registered, are well-lighted under surveillance, and some for, 24 hours a day and have their hand gladly open for the $15 to $25 charge which I consider well worth the peace of mind. I suspect the same options may be open in other cities, therefore worth mentioning.

Allen

[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 12-11-98).]


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 1998 8:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
"However I'd like to ask you if you think a group of kids, forget the color, continually taunts adults on the street, then could they themselves get braver and more aggressive as their experience builds until they cross a line and do something outwardly stupid?"

My answer is twofold: one, if they did, it's only a matter of time before the cops round them up, and two, I've NEVER seen a group of kids TAUNT adults, particular a dude and his family. If I may interpret and apply what Konrad Lorenz discusses in "On Agression" (I'm reading it now. It's very informative), if you were to give the group mind some sort of animal designation, then the animal mind would only attack something that was of the same or very closely related species it thinks is on its turf, i.e., another kid, or particularly a kid that one of them does not like. The only trouble I've heard of adults having from a group of kids is them relating the story to me of how they survived an attack. Bottom line is that if there had really been an threat there, with the odds at LEAST 2 to 1, in the kids favor, and no one else was around, John C's post would have started off with "Let me tell you how I got ATTACKED" in DC. In addition, if he really did avoid a confrontation, there wouldn't have been ANY laughter afterwards. That particular type of group would be behaving in predator mode, and I'm sure they would have seized the opportunity to circle and attack perceived prey (i.e. John C and family) ESPECIALLY IF THERE WERE NO WITNESSES. However, I will say again, that unfortunatetly, if you put out the "I Am Afraid You Will Attack Me" vibe, some idiot WILL. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. I stay AWARE, but I don't stay AFRAID. (This is coming from a guy who has TWICE had a group of teenagers try to stone him as a child when he was once with his mother and cousin, and again, when he was with a playmate, by suburban children!! Let me remind you that this was NOT in the District, either!!!!!!!!)

From what I gathered from John C's post, those kids were probably a normal bunch, bumming around, going to catch a movie or something, particularly at that time of night in that local. I really did not perceive any taunting at all, from the facts as he has relayed them. Teenagers are (forgive me please for generalizing any teenagers reading this, but if you look at how you treat the geeks in your school you know it's true) are some of the most cruel, NON-compassionate people on the planet, regardless of race. In fact, they'd probably give someone in their own race a razzing more so that an "outsider" (per Konrad Lorenz and what I've seen myself), because the "outsider" is outside of their perceived territory. As ANY adult would most likely be, UNLESS THE KIDS WERE PREDATORS ON THEIR OWN TURF. I really don't think those kids were predators. Now had it been WELL after the Metro rail should have been closed and there was no real reason for them being in there, then that's a red flag. Also, these youngsters were OUTSIDE OF THEIR TERRITORY. If a group of kids in a group-animal mindset, (like what Lorenz discusses) is in their territtory then there may be some concern. The metrorail system is considered a neutral territory, particularly outside of the district itself. I take the rail all the time, so I know.

It's really rare that something happens on the trains. John C (and most tourists and travelers) should be more worried about terrorist attacks and the bomb threats that happen in the federal section of the town, rather than a threat from the locals. (Believe me, judging from the onslaught of camera-carrying father-son and mother-daughter pairs that mob the city every spring and summer, asking us poor people going to work where the Washington Monument is, like you can't see the darn thing as big as it is, from any hill in the tourist section, I don't think the visitors feel threatened or ARE threatened.)
I would say to go into a yellow zone of awareness around the tourist part of town (am I quoting Van Canna with that code yellow thing??) just to be safe.

Enough said by me. I'm tired and I want to go home so I can go catch the Star Trek premiere!!!!!! (Duhn, dun da duhn, dew da duhhhhhhn......)


Cecil
P.S. Okay, so I'm a Trekky, but just for the record, I've never been to a convention. Really. Honest.


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 1998 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Cecil,

I don't know the specifics of this area so I am not really commenting on the specifics of this encounter.

You are dead on about awareness over alarm. You cannot perceive real danger if you cloud your mind with the buzz of imagined danger (See de Becker "Gift of Fear"). In fact, again from de Becker, fear is an excellent indicator that whatever you are afraid of is not yet happening. So, it is the utmost importance to be aware of your fear but to avoid generating it unnecessarily. The generation of fear must come from your instincts to be helpful.

For example, a buddy of mine is downright paranoid. He won't step anywhere near a dark alleyway, moving all the way over to the other side of the steet ... sometimes crossing the street (by the way, I agree with keeping some distance from dark alleyways so as to prevent a surprise attack from being truly instanteous from near instanteous but it can be carried to far). He almost walks around in his karate stance when in a dark parking lot. Well, anyway, one time as we approach an alleyway he goes over to the edge of the curb and stares intently into the darkness ... and runs into a big guy, who apparently was in a bad mood. Nothing bad happened as we talked our way out of it as a dumb accident, but again he should have been paying attention to the po'ed guy on the sidewalk and not the darkness of the alley.

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 1:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2073
Location: Boston, MA
Cecil,

I think you made some good points with your background in D.C. and your knowledge and observations of kids. Generally speaking, if see a big group of kids (say five or more) walking around, they're out goofing, cruising, having a good time. Predator groups will work in smaller numbers. It's easier to split up and not get caught after doing something. Out with a large group, do something, somebody WILL get caught. And someone will talk. However, a large group which is stationery may be on the home turf. Traveling, they may be going to "war" but then the signs/vibes would be all there.

Nevertheless, even with a seemingly harmless group, give off the wrong vibes/signals (fear, "dis", whatever), you can trigger something. Once it starts, most will get involved if it's a tight group.

Although the national and local (Boston) crime statistics are down, the statistics indicate that assaults are largely perpetuated by 25 and under, i.e. young folks. (Hey, they have not had time to smarten up yet.) A lot of these, as you pointed out, happens on "home turf" with the "players". But, this is not to say that bystanders don't get whacked every so often by accident or for the heck of it sometimes. We shouldn't fear kids but we should also respect the statistics.

I can't say I know DC well but I've gone down there for conferences, twice a year, for the last 7 years. I can respect your apparent love/like of your city. However, it has earned the title of "homicide capital" for a number of years for good reasons. As a visitor, I am concerned and cautious when I get there BECAUSE I don't know the local scene. I generally don't go out socializing much during these conferences, so it doesn't take much for me to stay out of trouble by staying in the hotel. But I do like to work out. So during my week long stays, I generally try to get out to Saotome Sensei's dojo (Washington Aikikai) two or three times. His dojo is couple of blocks from a station off the Silver Spring line (?). So, I generally end up walking two or three blocks (depending on the hotel) to get to the metro and then to the station.

The first year I was in DC, there was a guy doing driveby shooting of people randomly on street corners. I think 3 people had been shot, one while I was in town. During another conference, someone was shot and killed right at the station where I get off to go to Saotome's dojo. Was I VERY, VERY cautious? Yes, indeed, though it didn't stop me from doing I wanted to.

I am generally cautious when I visit ANY city. One way to be cautious is to NOT ACT OR DRESS LIKE A TOURIST. A tourist ending up in the wrong place in town can be an easy juicy target for a lurking predator. Leave the "I love (put the city here)" t-shirts, don't carry a camera everywhere you go, and make sure you get directions and clearly check with a map before you head out to a place, among other things. This is true when I am in DC, NY, San Francisco, Salt Lake or little Burlington, VT. I rather blend in as much as I can.

Oh, on blending in, sometimes you can't. I have been harassed when I was with my very young children. The harassment is often by teens. Most of the time nothing comes of the harassment if one just walks away (especially when one is with the kids). And sometimes, **** happens. So, it's not an iron clad rule (there aren't any) that kids won't pick on adults.

david


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 7:37 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 203
Location: Florida
Cecil:

Hold on! Are you tripping all over preconceived ideas and a so called "inside track"?

Paranoid? Frankly, this seems gratuitous rhetoric to get a point across.

It seems defensiveness may have outstriped logic due to assumptions and conclusions far beyond what can be remotely implied. Trust me, these were NOT CHILDREN. These were teenagers, at least a few easily 16-17.

I disagree strongly that if they had truly had any intentions they would have been on me anyway. Frankly, we were too big a group regardless of how we may have appeared or what they may have had in mind. Secondly, we were pretty cool about the thing without a whole lot of fear behavior. Finally, what you are suggesting flies in the face of DeBecker - trust the primal instincts that come your way. We listened and responded under control, with some sense of urgency. What's the problem here? Truly, I don't get it.

It may be denial to think anyone is NOT going to notice 8-9 black males that move deliberately and suddenly appear. Please! Of course ANYONE is going to NOTICE! This is normal.

I was not necessarily responding to the color, but the NUMBER, the MOVEMENT, the HOUR, the ISOLATION, the SUDDENNESS and yes the VIBES of the event.

Spare me the D.C. home boy sainthood routine please.


JohnC

[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited 12-12-98).]

[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited 12-12-98).]

[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited 12-12-98).]


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 11:57 am 
John. 16 0r 17? I thought they were kids. At that age it is just trouble waiting to happen whether in Arlington or on the streetcorner of my hometown. The thought that comes into my head is "mob mentality." -- Allen


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 2:22 pm 
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Posts: 204
Folks,
I've got to get off to class, or Sensei will be angry (and you wouldn't like him when he's angry...), but -

It seems to me that both John and Cecil have valid points, which do not necessarily contradict one another. I agree, John, that when you get that "vibe" of danger, you should go with your gut. If the cost of this in that particular case was a little laughter at your expense, so be it.

At the same time, what De Becker does not (as far as I recall) address, because he is trying to talk about when that gut feeling is valuable and important to listen to, is the times that it does, in fact "misfire." I do not think that in the moment, one should second guess gut feelings about danger - this is precisely his point. However, I do think that all of us have some obligation to examine these feelings within us from the standpoint of safety, after the event, to determine whether our reaction was grounded in reality.

Specifically, it seems that what Cecil is talking about (in addition to specifics about the D.C. area, about which I know very little) is the damage that instituional racism causes. By virtue of the fact that I *know* (read sarcasm here folks) that it is young black men who commit *all* of society's crimes, if I stay clear of them, I will be safer. This is, in fact what the mass media suggests to us constantly, in many different ways. This is despite, as Cecil points out, the fact that predators of any ethnicity tend to prey on those most like them, and the fact that any young black man (regardless of his motivations) knows that should he 'overstep' the bounds of community, and go after a suburban (white) family, suddenly the powers that be (who were heretofore supposedly helpless to control his criminal actions) will come down on him like a ton of bricks.

It is not a comfortable feeling for an individual when people to respond to him based on preconceptions. If you haven't had the experience of someone crossing the street, very obviously to avoid you, because of assumptions they are making based on skin color, realize that this is still a reality in this day and age. Again, I wasn't there, John, and your reaction probably made total sense in the situation, but let's also not forget that our reactions themselves have an effect.

Sorry for the diatribe,

greg


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 2:45 pm 
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Posts: 203
Location: Florida
Allen:

Exactly! This was no innocent meandering group of children. It was a gang of teens out way after dark on a week night or school night who had no business being out that late and who at the most innocent level were simply cruising to see what they could shake down.

Cecil:

Further, as I stated in my original post, I said Arlington, or some such burb, so I am not entirely sure where it was that we parked. There are dozens of these stations in the area. I am somewhat incredulous that someone could seriously entertain the notion that they can presume or predict what they were up to and not know at that time exactly where the incident occured. I think again, that this might suggest a little hasitness on your part to foist your opinions.

So, let me get this straight, a large group of 13 to 17 year old black "youths" are CHILDREN and not a gang or mob. IF something might have happened, then it would have been as much or more OUR fault because in your mind they "perceived" we were under possible threat? BOO?

Trust me, we did not FREEZE, nor PANICK, there was no MAJOR signs. Yes, we responded with authority, but I really think you might be misunderstanding the scenario. However, I must add that this was so long ago before I had taken any self defense or martial arts training, so who knows exactly what was really going on?

BTW, thanks for the reminder - The Metro - had forgotten that point.

So, like, we should have just ignored these guys, sauntered over to our car oblivious to their presence? What if they had been up to no good, isn't there more danger in no reaction than overreaction? Come on!

You also mention something about the law, what if the law didn't show up for some time? This threat could have been over fairly quickly and if they knew the area, they could have been done and gone before any cop showed up.

In Native American cultures, young male warriors used to stalk a prey or enemy, and carefully pick a vulnerable moment to catch the prey unawares and touch or in other ways make an intimate encounter(cut a lock of hair, steal a necklace, etc.) as a show of " I could have taken you out if I wanted to" I believe this is called " counting coup" This seems to me more what was going on more of an initiation than innocent children laughing at foolish adults, although we were dead wrong to be there at that time.

Your seemed to have conflicting messages - I was overeacting and shouldn't have worried and then suggesting that I should park in downtown hotel garages to avoid assaults and a stolen car! Which is it?


JohnC


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 3:03 pm 
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Posts: 203
Location: Florida
Greg:

Let me just say that I really posted this encounter to see what the concensus was about me reaction and if I did in fact overreact. Maybe we did, maybe not.

It's pretty hard to ignore a large group of any color, but I'm sure you and Cecil are making a valid point in general, but perhaps not about me.

I am not going to use the classic "some of my best friends are black" excuse, but ... I do live in a rural community that is majority black. My kids go to public school and their classmates are majority black. I attend public functions and am frequently the minority at football games and have become comfortable with moving through huge crowds of black teens I don't know if this mitagates the subtle cultural biases that affect us all both black and white. But, if I had any deep prejudice, my kids would go to private school and I sure as hell would not go to these public events to be around so many of THEM.

But I am sure I still carry prejudice and the system does reinforce stereotypes. I watch our local paper and see the good old boy network in action. But I digress ...

Hope you had a good training day. I do find it interesting to get these thoughts from you and Cecil. There is clearly a communication canyon between different cultures and maybe this type dialogue, though powerfully emotional at times, can in a tiny way help hone better understanding.


JohnC


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 Post subject: D.C. story
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 1998 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
Thanks for the other responses on this subject, where someone else for a change decided to make some of the points I would like to make and/or always seem to be making to people. I also like to here how people think who may not necessarily agree with me: it expands my world view.

However, to John C:

First, I am by no means on a pro-DC-Defend-My-Town Kick. I am responding to the details of the case as they were originally posted on this website. And, in my opnion, the reaction to a bunch of unarmed, meandering teens INSIDE OF THE METRORAIL (not out on the corner, where David's Silver Spring driveby occurred--not that I'm giving David credit for the crime) was overkill, a misfire of the gut reaction. In fact, I DO NOT LIVE INSIDE OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, I live in a suburb; I have spent a lot of time there doing music and working, i.e., at all hours of the day and night. So, I have no REAL stake in defending the District because I do not live there. Again, I am stating that I disagree with your reaction and perception of the events, regardless of how old the kids were.

I'm not even going to touch the color thing. I'll let other people do that. Deep in your heart, you know whether or not that is a problem. I cannot judge you or really confirm or deny that about you from behind this computer terminal, so I won't.

I WILL SAY it seems that there are some assumptions made about young people, judging from the responses of others. Such a shame. It probably is because, as someone put it, they "have not smartened up yet". But, I for one do not feel fear whenever I encounter a group of meandering teens, despite the fact that I have had problems with wandering teen groups in the past. I was trying to provide some INSIGHT because I know what that laughter meant in that context, since I'm a part of that particular culture those kids are in, and I've been on the other end.

Second: about the car parking details? No, it's not a mixed message. I was simply trying to tell you another option I think you would be more comfortable with while visiting, one that would give you a better sense of security, and keep you away from any more bands of wandering youth. Perhaps the best response would have been how David wrote he handles these situations, "Most of the time nothing comes of harassment if one just walks away...." . It did NOT sound like you were being harassed in THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION. Who knows, if you encounter another group of wandering youth under different circumstances, different time, date, OR place and the alarm goes of, you may be right. Details are everything, and I did NOT perceive a threat to you or your family through the details you FIRST presented. I will admit that a lot of people from out of town have a bad perception of DC and it's surrounding area BECAUSE OF THE MEDIA. And I'm talking guys from some "tough guys" of the roughest parts of other major cities. Really, when it comes down to it, there are good and bad parts of any metropolitan area, and I try to avoid the places that are a threat to ME.

I promise, this is the last I will comment on this subject.

Nuff said,

Cecil.


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