Uechi-Ryu.com

Tracy Rose sensei wrote "I just don't get how some people, especially people called martial artists think. I just don't get it. Mr. Canna's scenario is about as
straight forward as it gets and yet we pontificate, beat around the
subject and mentally masturbate it to death."

If you have ever been lucky enough to workout in one of Tracy's classes then you will know about his no-nonsense approach to training and self defense ! Extreme power in simple techniques rooted in unshakable mind set !

He brings up a good point ! It is best to be very clear and very simple in your position as you respond to this forum , lest you might be misunderstood !

He also brings up the legal essence of use of potential deadly force in self defense ! It is paramount to keep this essence down to very basic terms in your mind for the best possible retention and programming without equivocation , or you will freeze into inaction , like a deer in the headlights !

As Tracy sensei points out , and according to the teachings of lethal force experts , you are only justified in using potential deadly force if you face "immediate , impending , unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm " ! And don't tell me you will not be using "deadly force " in your defense ! Every move you make has the potential of becoming deadly force ; and this IS the way it will be seen by the law especially when your training and your dan rank comes to light !

This concept is reflected in three words , easy enough to remember , if you care to take this seriously instead of sidetracking .

1] Ability [ your opposition has size , greater strength , greater numbers or a weapon ]! If you see a weapon then you have 1/3 of the justification !

2] opportunity [ Is he close enough to inflict damage or is he behind a fence ! ]

3] Jeopardy [ what has convinced you that you are really in danger ! ] At trial the jury will decide if a reasonable and prudent man would have felt jeopardized by death or serious injury under a similar set of circumstances presented to the subject victim !

In order for one to make a decision Quickly and in clear conscience for the use of force , he/she must be able to readily recognize the pre-assault indicators for what they really are ! This takes more specialized training than some "dojo" exposure with kata/kumite/leg banging ! Most of us will not go that route of knowledge , rather, we will equivocate and "mentally masturbate " those concepts to death !

That being the case my advise is not to show half ass karate techniques on the street , because you are really going to p*** some bad M**** off ; and if you don't have the proper mindset for the use of a deadly weapon , such as a knife or gun , better get rid of it so that it will not be grabbed from your shaky hands by a street -wise criminal and turned against you !


Van Canna



[This message has been edited by VAN CANNA (edited 12-09-98).]

[This message has been edited by VAN CANNA (edited 12-09-98).]

Van/Tracy senseis,

The scenario presented in the other thread is very clear. If we were in that position, it could be fortunate or misfortunate. Fortunate because the factors of "ability, opportunity and jeopardy" are all there and one can respond with extreme prejudice. Misfortunate if one finds that s/he does not have what it takes, mentally and physically, to respond. We can all talk a "good game" and, maybe, even practice it a little bit. But most of us don't really know if we can play for keeps until we are there. (There are some who "played" that game but ain't about to talk about it here.)

I think the situations where the threat is not so clear cut that people have problems answering straight forwardly (not to be confused with how one will in reality) -- the drunk, the smiling face with the malevolent "air", the persistent/flirtatious stranger. These are the situations where people go through a mental loop trying to figure out if the three factors of "ability, opportunity and jeopardy" are converging into a life threatening situation. Then to pose the possible ramifications in a court of law after taking action, the mind is spinning and the body freezes.

I am not advocating this for everybody but to avoid mindlock I simply act (evasive, defensive/offensive) when I feel/perceive a physical threat. I trust my instincts. I'll worry about the legal ramifications later, provided they find me and get me in a court of law.

david

Remember the situation at the beginning of the movie "Con Air", where Cameron Poe is threatened by THREE guys, one has a knife, and he goes to jail for killing one of them because he supposed has special powers due to his military training that can enable him to wave a wand and make the bad guys disappear!

That movie really hit home for me. It started me to wonder if I'd be seen that way as a Martial Artist after I get the black belt. It turns out, according to this forum, I would be. But despite that, I'd probably do something similar to what Poe did in that movie if I felt I had to protect my family from rape and/or death. In fact, if I were Poe, knowing me like I do, I would have probably run at the guys not with my "empty hands", but with the car he was in!!!!! I remember watching the movie and saying "Hell, man, don't fight them, RUN THE MUTHA F*****S OVER!!" (If I remember correctly, he was already getting in the car, and the door was closing when the guy came up on the side; he had to get OUT of the car to fend them off.) My wife gave me THAT LOOK, the one that says "Oh my God, I've married a psycho!" Yet she will be the first to admit that she feels safe around me because she knows that first in foremost, I'm big on avoidance, but when push comes to shove, I'll protect her no matter what.

What the point? I think that too many people are just learning Karate, when they also need to, as they say where I'm from, learn "Ka-Razy" and maybe even "Ka-Razor"!!!!!

And sadly, I think that movie was an instance where art probably imitated life, where a guy just trying to protect his woman and himself, gets the short end of the stick because he's expected to be super-human in a sub-human situation.

Cecil

David wrote -
"I think the situations where the threat is not so clear cut that people have problems
answering straight forwardly (not to be confused with how one will in reality) -- the
drunk, the smiling face with the malevolent "air", the persistent/flirtatious stranger.
These are the situations where people go through a mental loop trying to figure out
if the three factors of "ability, opportunity and jeopardy" are converging into a life
threatening situation. Then to pose the possible ramifications in a court of law after taking action, the mind is spinning and the body freezes."

Excellent point. This is where the evade, talk, leave, disengage whatever strategy comes in. There is an option. Mas Ayoob wrote once that when he carried firearms he also carried a $20 bill wrapped around a quarter. That way if he was ever mugged he had the option of throwing money and disengaging. The point is (as Sanford Strong states) there is a plan in place, a decision made.

Anthony writes-
There is no option in the scenario. It is my duty as a man to fight to the death to
protect my loved ones. Five guys with Baseball bats seems to be quite an adversary
but a soldier empowered with a sense of duty is a force to be reckoned with.

Remember, the power will always flow to the path of least resistance. That is, the
one who is the true believer. Forget about all that science stuff.

Dying is a solution to be avoided. It is 'noble' to die for the cause but what about the survivors? True warriors/soldiers Plan to survive and take their children to a safer beach. This is what a true man's duty is! I have no idea what you mean by 'power flowing' and 'forget all that science stuff'. You cannot understand Uechi without a grounding in how the body works and the principles of force.


Last night I attended a course given by my areas police firearm instructor (he also instructs the SWAT team and is the former PT instructor). He stated almost verbatim what Canna sensie wrote! At late 40's the officier opted to go back to his beloved motorcycle patrol. At 53 he is looking forward to retiring in 2 years. He stated that the academy (the academy is one of the few accredited academies in the area. they teach most of the local forces. The other accredited academy is the state police. The course runs 6 months of intense police training) loses roughly 25-30% of the candidates. Many leave due to the volume of homework 5-6 hours nightly. Many leave due to the demands of physical daily training (that combined with the demands of homework).This challenges most candidates desires and determination. The last reason that candidates leave is that they cannot decide if they could pull the trigger and take a human life if need be!!! Look at the above carefully. Isn't that what some part of your training should be? Hard work, serious thought and a determined, decisive mind.

The second point he brought out was the aftermath of shooting, particularly in 'grey' shootings, a shooting where the officier was within the law, the policies of the dept., and tactics taught but still was a failed shooting. The infamous shooting of a 12 year old boy, toy pistol, dark hallway is the classical real life example. He stated that most of the officiers that come back after such a tramatic situation last on average 2-3 years. Their mind gets in the way, the self doubt clouds their ability to come to a pre-decision.

Finally, he gave a scenario much like the now infamous beach scenario. Home invasion, you retreat to your room with family (children,spouse etc). The invader starts banging down the door. You challenge "I have called the police, I have a gun, I will shoot to protect my family". The important thing that I picked up here was the "I will shoot to protect my family". The officier pointed out that the healing process will begin with that statement. When your children go to counceling after you splatter some derelict all over the hallway wall in front of them, this will be the phrase that the councelor starts with. When you put on your 'soldier' hat remember that it is not about you, it is about your responsibilities to others. The real battle begins after the use of judicious lethal force.

Morning Cecil,

I didn't see Con-air, I guess I have to rent it. Four points maybe worth discussing.

1) Movies influence us, but they are movies. I know you know this but it needs to be said.

2) If you got out of your car to fight instead of driving away you are automatically assuming some proportion of guilt in a civil case. In a criminal case, you are now in a grey area.

3) You could defend your wife better by getting the hell outa there. I am a big believer in goodyear tires and nike running shoes.

4) disparity of force.. a subjective interpretation of the force = force criteria. In general, you can use what force is reasonable in stopping a felonious assault (given by Van Sensie's criteria). A guy assaults you and you pepper spray him. You are ok. You like the way he wiggles on the ground so you spray a few more times. Now you are a candidate (and only a candidate) for prosecution. Two hundred pound man attacks a black belt, male 185 5 years training. Same 200lb man attacks black belt, female, 110 pounds. Two different cases. Disparity of force... at best a subjective rating.

Finally, along with ka-razy and ka-razor people should learn a little about chink-chink.

thanks for the thoughts

Boy, I get busy with stuff outside this forum and I miss a great thread! I knew I should have come here when I was posting on the Roundtable.

Anyway, my reply to Kyoshi Van Canna's original question "What would you do?".

Personally, I would beat them until they were no longer a threat or until I could flee! That's it. Nothing more nothing less. I would tear out their throats, gouge out thier eyes, break their legs, take one of their baseballs bat and send them back to the pulp from which they were born. Maybe you think I am "Ka-Razy" (I like that term ) but the fact of the matter is it has nothing to do with knowing karate or not. This is a matter of mindset (which stems from a powerful karate philosophy) I have no choice and defeat is not an option. I have no time to wallow in the doubts of whether I could take the damage they would dish out and still fight. I have no time to wallow in the doubts of whether I can dish out enough damage to take them out. Irrelevent nonsense. Defeat is not an option. Defeat only happens now and then, but it is must never be a choice. Period. I fight and fight until I die. That is the way and not just the way of battle for me.

Assuming that two people are equally and highly trained in skill, tactics and mindset, one in the martial arts and one in fire arms. They both encounter this situation described. How many times out of a hundred do you think they guy with the gun will survive (thats all that counts)? How many times out of hundred will the martial artist survive?

Osu!
Jason

I just don't get how some people, especially people called martial artists think. I just don't get it. Mr. Canna's scenario is about as straight forward as it gets and yet we pontificate, beat around the subject and mentally masturbate it to death. (Tracy Rose)

This has been an interesting thread but something is terribly missing. The guy in question placed himself between the "problem" and the potential center of their attention. With equalizer in hand and demonstrating the mindset to use it, he neutralized the situation and walked away unharmed. So far so good.

But what of those of us that opt not to carry an equalizer, be it a knife or gun or whatever? What would you have done in that exact same scenario? What state of mind would you be in at that moment with no one around to back you up?

"I would beat them to a pulp until they weren't standing anymore." Optimistic but not very realistic.

"I would take the bat from them and beat them with it." Fat chance - ever try taking a bat away from someone in the dojo, never mind in the street?

"I would offer my life on the alter of sacrifice." Death is not an acceptable option, life is. How do you think your loved ones will react knowing that you "willingly" gave up your life for them? Very selfish on your part.

Macho bull****. Come on - I'd like to hear some viable reactions to this situation from those of us that go unarmed. Doesn't our training provide us with some level of comfort knowing that we could reasonably handle a situation like this without a lethal weapon at hand?

Or perhaps it doesn't. In which case, if we ain't got the stones, then maybe, as Tracy said, we should learn a little about chink-chink.

Moe Mensale

Hello Everyone-

It’s hard to know exactly what you would do if put in that situation.

Since I never carry a weapon, what we know did work as a solution would not work for me. Also, being a woman, and having no children to protect, I would never be in that exact predicament. But I have been in dangerous situations in the past, and I know how I did react, and I like to think that I know how I would react in a similar bind.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.The situation as I understand it is five aggressive guys verbally assaulting you and your daughter, while armed with baseball bats and beer bottles, and making serious threats. In the situation described, it doesn’t sound like you can sit down and discuss it over a bonfire on the beach. What you want (need) to do is protect your family or loved one at all and any cost. Of course it is always best to live, but you may not, and dying without a struggle is something I never intend to do.

The last thing on my mind would be any possible legal ramifications. Live first, deal with the justice system later.

If you believe you would beat them until they were no longer standing, or would take the bat and beat them with it, GREAT. At least your mindset is such that you would not go down without fighting. Simply taking a firm stand might be enough to discourage the punks from pursuing it any further. Probably not, but they know that you are not going to be easy prey, and one of them might get hurt taking you down. Personally I believe that I would draw in my mind the line of no retreat. If they did not appear that they could be talked down, and they were climbing out of the vehicle armed, and I had no possibility of escape, then I would attack for all I was worth. I would try to hurt, maim, disable, and get a weapon from them. I would be less vulnerable while trying to eye gouge, punch & kick & grab or whatever else was possible to do to them than I would be fleeing down the beach on foot when they have a jeep, and the only thing they have to contend with is a defenseless backside.

Natalie

Assuming no peaceful alternative is available which I think in this case we would all agree is unlikely. The original scenario being also that escape is unlikely ("you are far from any help") and they have a jeep which is much faster then we can what alternative is there? Fight. Fight with nothing but victory in mind. Does it matter if you can win or not? No. Fight and keep fighting. If you want realism then you have to accept your defeat and death because that is what should happen, and likely will if you just look realistic, because you will be filled with hesitation and doubt which in this kind of battle you cannot afford. This kind of battle is not a thinking man's battle. There is no alternative, there is nothing else. If you have no gun, you get a stick, if there are no sticks, you get a rock, if there are no rocks you use the sand, if it proves ineffective you try to get a weapon from them, you use every tactic and skill you have at your disposal to win, which is to say survive without such extensive damage that you wouldn't want live (this level of damage is different for all of us and is a matter of the heart ... I personally wouldn't want to live as a vegetable, some might consider that okay). If you think begging for your life will make you survive then you do it, but that is a battle to, because you must be convincing. Whatever you do you must throw yourself completely into your action without hestitation or doubt. Defeat cannot be an option in your mind or heart or you will fail.

Macho bull****. Maybe. I am willing to accept that maybe I am a delusional macho whatever. Or perhaps the only way to victory when nothing else is around.

Realistic. A 100 lb women cannot lift a car.
Reality. It has happened because in the moment realistic wasn't in such a women's mind. Just the life of the loved one under the car.

Another example. I put you in a 40' x 40'
steel wall room. On one side is a hitman with a pistol, you have nothing and there is nothing else in the room. You start in the middle of the room. The doors is electomagnetically sealed and is behind the machine gun guy. He is being paid $1,000,000 US to shoot you and is more than happy to do it as a professional hitman. What do you do?
Answer. Fight, what else is there? But again most importantly is you must fight with total conviction that you will win. You have to cut down the hitman in your mind first.

Osu!
Jason

Addendum.

In other words, there is no tactic or skill (although Sifu Mooney's skills would come in awful handy around then ) that is proven to work and will work. I just don't think there is any answer beyond just fight. That is why in my original post I tried to avoid specifics ... you know like "I would go after the biggest guy and attempt to kill/disable him outright in hopes of striking fear into them." I guess that is my main point. Often in martial arts we get hung up on that stuff and forget that there are times when all of that is just plain junk. We forget that there are times where nothing more than your spirit will pull you through.

Osu!
Jason

Greetings all.
At this point my training focuses on diverting force, that is, vectoring it slightly off the mark, bringing the opponent's face remarkably close to my hands. And this as softly as possible. BUT -- the softest, fastest move cannot divert a bullet. Words can, occasionally. I will never abandon the concept of the modern martial artist as a mental or psychological adept, able to manipulate the mindset of a would-be attacker. Consider how easily a person might "vector" an attacker-victim scenario into an alpha-beta wolf confrontation.

Am I off the subject, or on?

Michael

Tracy.

I just read what you wrote a few postings ago: "There is an option. Mas Ayoob wrote once that when he carried firearms he also carried a $20 bill wrapped around a quarter. That way if he was ever mugged he had the option of throwing money and disengaging."

A $20 wrapped around a quarter?

I "threw money" once and it worked. I was with a date and swallowed my pride real fast, right past the lump in my throat, when approached by three guys as we (the girl and I) emerged to the street from the subway.

I was asked for money right away (THAT was the interview), reached into my pocket and gave all I had: loose change and a few bills. I said "this is all I have," saw a dumbfounded look on the 'leader's' face, grabbed my girl's hand and walked away fast. End of story.

Allen

[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 12-12-98).]

Tracy/Allen,

The bill toss away works if they are out for money. By all means, hand it to them quick and leave. But, sometimes they are interested in more than "quick money" and more than you're willing to give...

david

I have heard advocated from time to time
by various self defense people to have your money in a seperate billfold/wallet/etc then
your id, driver's license, credit card, etc.
Then you can drop your money wallet and go.
If the thieves truly only want your money then they are unlikely to pursue. However, if they pursue then you know for sure you are in trouble and it is time for more drastic measures. I have never done this, but know that you guys talk about dropping the money and running, maybe it is not such a bad idea.

Osu!
Jason

Yeah, David. What works once may not work a second time. Every situation is different. -- Allen