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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 1998 9:08 pm 
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Location: Evansville, IN, USA
I couldn't find the quote I was looking for about the ultimate victory being defeating your enemies without the use of force, but I did find some interesting ones.

Sun Tzu - "Disciplined and calm, to await the appearance of disorder and hubbub amongst the enemy:--this is the art of retaining self-possession."

My translation - Mindset. The "Uechi/Kyokushin glare". Practice in a mirror. Image

Sun Tzu - "Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical."

My translation - Choose your battles. Fight to win, and fight especially when you can win.

"No ruler should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen; no general should fight a battle simply out of pique. Anger may in time change to gladness; vexation may be succeeded by content. But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the
dead ever be brought back to life."

My translation - Choose your battles wisely. Nobody wins in a fight.

"Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy
of all is to besiege walled cities."

"To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy."

My translation - In self defense, your concern is your survival. Get rid of these dreams of making movie martial arts magic! Capitalize on your enemies mistakes, therein lies his defeat.

"Security against defeat implies defensive tactics; ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive. Standing on the defensive indicates insufficient strength; attacking, a superabundance of
strength."

My translation - Attack! Attack! Attack! Attack! Nobody ever won a fight by blocking. Attack and do not relent until your enemy is gone. Blocking will encourage your enemy to attack you further (you have "insufficent strength" of will). See your Peyton Quinn "Real Fighting".

"Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

My translation - True story. Friend of mine sensed that some guys in a bar were eyeing him a bit too much. When he left the bar he feigned drunkeness and as they approached with their guard completely off he dropped two of them in seconds and ran while the other was still in shock. Not sure how applicable this is in normal street self defense situations.


"Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign."

My translation - Just pretty cool quote.

Anybody who can find the "Ultimate victory is winning without using your army at all" please submit it???

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 1998 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 670
Is this it?

Therefore the skilful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.

~ Sun Tzu ~

Kevin


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 1998 1:45 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
I can't find my copy of "The Art of War". But, I think the quote is "To win without fighting is best."

david


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 1998 12:54 pm 
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Posts: 317
and Bruce Lee's paraphrase... "the art of fighting without fighting".


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 1998 3:02 pm 
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Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Kevin-san! Yes, this is it. Thank you very much.

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 1998 8:55 pm 
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Location: Boston, MA
# 3 of chapter on "Offensive Strategy":

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

Samuel B. Griffith translated version. There are many other translated versions.


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 1998 10:32 pm 
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Gentlemen ,

All this is very good and enlightening ! Now suppose you are the person on the beach with your daughter about to be raped by the drunken armed punks ! How would you translate all of the above concepts to real life application? Let's hear some examples of strategies on that beach which will win your battle without fighting !!!!!

Van


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 1998 10:54 pm 
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Canna Sensei,

It seems to me that 'winning without fighting' is precisely what your friend did. He showed his strength (weapon) and his intent to use it, but did not need to shoot anyone because he utilized this strategy effectively.

greg


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 1998 3:13 am 
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Location: Florida
Jason:

Another great quote along the lines of war by Winston Churchill "Speak softly and carry a big stick"

JohnC



[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited 12-16-98).]


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 1998 5:52 am 
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Jason,

Did you run out of energy before 'translating' the last quote? That was the best one! I especially like: "He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign." Seems to me that on a personal level, this is about not 'fighting yourself' when it is time for action. If the 'sovereign' (mind) second guesses the 'military capacity' (training and will), one cannot win...

greg

[This message has been edited by Greg (edited 12-16-98).]


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 1998 8:00 am 
Anthony, The part about fighting without fighting that you don't get? Didn't you just accomplish doing just that with the line-cutters where you work? Maybe you've got more Sun Tsu philosophy in you than you realize, it sneaks in with age. -- Allen

[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 12-17-98).]


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 1998 11:47 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
Van Sensei/Anthony,

"Winning without fighting" is to say that you achieve your objective without physical confrontation. As you pointed elsewhere, one can win a physical fight but lose in many other ways, like in a court of law. Sun Tsu's perspective is similar to yours in many respects -- assess the factors, think ahead, do what you must, but do so with as much forsight as possible so you can achieve what you really want with minimal complications.

Sun Tsu was a brilliant strategist in a warring period of China's history. He was not aversed to physical confrontation. In fact, he saw confrontation as a necessary part of "civilization". But he also realized "force" for the sake of it is destructive. It was something to be used bravely but also wisely.

david


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 1998 5:17 am 
Anthony,

My take on Sun Tzu, (and Bruce Lee, for that matter), is that you fight if you have to, but it's better to resolve the situation without actually fighting. For the Bruce Lee part, see the scene in Enter the Dragon where the Kiwi wants to fight him on the junk on the way to Han's island. Bruce tricks him into gettting into the small boat, then strands him there.

Basically Sun Tzu says that you fight if you have to, but it's better to use other means to a) destroy your enemy, b)diffuse the situation.

In my albeit dull and uneventful life, I have used this strategy a couple of times.

One time when I was 16 I was at a dance on a Friday night. A local tough guy decided that I was trying to steal his girlfriend, (which was wrong: my best friend was trying to steal his girlfriend), and decided to goad me into a fight. He started the pre-fight ritual, insulting me, my family, etc. Frankly, I didn't see any reason to mix it up with this idiot, (insults from a moron like that aren't to be taken seriously), so I decided to deflate him. I agreed with everything he said, with an earnest, guileless look on my face. I did not let him know, by word or gesture, that I thought he was a moron.

He was puzzled because the situation was not going according to the template (I was supposed to get mad, insult him back and then go outside and duke it out), and a little confused.

Finally, he got too uncomfortable with the situation. he said, "OK, I'll let you go this time, but you better get out of here. If I see you around here again, there'll be trouble."

I said, "Ok I'll leave right away."

Of course, I didn't go anywhere, but for the rest of the night whenever he passed by me he looked the other way.

The secret to this, by the way is that you have to be able to read the situation. I knew this guy wasn't going to attack without the proper ritual, and I knew how he waould react to what i said and did.

This speaks to the discussion about the group of youths at the DC subway parking lot, and to another Sun Tzu quote. In any situation you have to be able to read the signs. (See sun Tzu's aphorism re: knowing yourself and knowing you enemy.) To me the most important self defence technique is the ability to assess the situation, (de Becker come to mind here), you have to know when kids are merely goofing or mean you harm; you have to be able to see the guy in the corner of the bar who is about to explode into violence. You have to know what you are capable of, what you can and can't do. You have to be absolutely sure that you can deal with the aftermath, whatever it is.



[This message has been edited by maurice richard libby (edited 12-17-98).]


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 1998 2:07 am 
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Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Anthony,

Surely you are mistaken. That young lady cannot possibly be the seed of your loins.

There ain't a single "too" on her!! Image


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 Post subject: The Art of War
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 1998 4:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Imagine that Van Canna is transported a few hundred years into the future and assume the fear aspect of personal hand to hand combat hasn't changed much. Would your message of the defensive mindset be less valid? No, of course not.

It is similar I think to Sun Tzu's "Art of War" except for a few things. One, because of translation you really have to put some deep thought into what he is trying to say (as opposed to your message which is much more clear). Two, he deals primarily with the task of being a general not a fighter, and so again so objective thought must be placed to translate some (and only some, because some of the things to not apply to the way of personal combat from the battlefield strategy) of the things to personal combat.

So, the bottom line is if you are reading Sun Tzu to find the secrets of combat, you are fooling yourself. If you reading Sun Tzu to get a few free lessons from a famous and very successful general then it is okay. But if you think having a few tips on how you ultimately like to conduct a fight make you invincible then you (generic you) are a fool.

With regards to "fighting without fighting" and Sun Tzu in particular. I think Sun Tzu's main point is that it is better to bribe the enemy than fight the enemy. It is better to charm the enemy than to fight the enemy. But when it is time fight the enemy crush them and fight to win.

With regards to Sun Tzu and the beach. Sun Tzu principles do apply. It is just that in this scenario it is time to skip to the end so to speak. It is time to fight since the scenario said that fleeing is impossible, and I think it is quite clear that non-violent ways of survival are non-existent. This is not the time to be philosophizing. This is the time for prelearned lessons, whether they come from an intellgent Sensei, Kyoshi Van Canna, or Sun Tzu. You have to have your head in order before this type of thing occurs or it is your time to die.

Osu!
Jason


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