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According to studies of emotional intelligence , anger is the mood most difficult to control , it is the most seductive of negative emotions and the " self righteous inner monologue propels it along , fills the mind with the most convincing arguments for venting rage " ! Anger is energizing and exhilarating as the neocortex foments revenge thoughts or outrage at unfairness or injustice!

Anger /rage , is rooted in the "fight" wing of the " fight or flight " response and , DR zillman feels that rage is triggered when we feel somehow endangered no only physically but by symbolic threats to self esteem i.e., dignity , rudeness, insulted, demeaned, frustrated in business and in love etc. !

When this happens , the release of catecholamines produce a great amount of energy surge that can last for minutes and it readies the body for a good fight or a quick flight , depending on how the emotional brain sizes up the opposition !
At moderate levels of anger , it is indicated that defusing is possible by reappraising the anger provoking events ! But at high levels of rage , there is cognitive incapacitation , people can no longer think straight !


If the enraged person fights , usually he falls back on the most primitive of responses and the rawest lessons of life's brutality become guides to action.---[ Zillman]

This[ anger response] is a survival instinct and should not be stifled ! Studies do show that superhuman , animal type strength is always rooted in our strongest of emotions, hate and fear .[Strong] ! You must be angry / hate your enemy to get you over the fear and terror of the moment and mobilize you into action ! Some people will not fight back for fear of injury !Truth is if you fight back in a rage you will not feel any pain , not until much later ! The size of your opponent should not matter when you are triggered in a rage , and you will win out of sheer determination !

Van Canna

A perfect example of this "anger factor" happened yesterday in the West Palm Beach area.

A deaf, mute man in his forties had been living in his particular neighborhood for some three years and always frequented a certain convenience store. Over the years he had developed a close friendship (platonic) with one of the female clerks.

Yesterday, obviously in need of some additional cash for last minute Christmas shopping, a young scumbag miscreant entered the store and promptly put his gun to the clerk's head in an effort to validate his request for funds.

The deaf, mute man happened to be in the store when this happened. Upon seeing the situation, he immediately, without any hesitation, attacked the scumbag, disarmed him of his weapon, ripped his mask off and chased him out of the store and down the street but lost him in the traffic!!

When sheriff's deputies interogated the man later, they were astonished to discover that, besides being a deaf mute, he had no prior military training or martial arts training of any kind. What prompted him to react as he did? He became enraged when his friend was placed in harm's way. As Van pointed out "at high levels of rage , there is cognitive incapacitation , people can no longer think straight !"

If we, as martial artists, choose not to "carry," then it is imperative that we nurture and use this "anger response" for survival situations. By so doing, we will fall "back on the most primitive of responses and [let] the rawest lessons of life's brutality become guides to action.---[ Zillman]"

This is the only type of response that will allow us to come out the victor when faced with situations such as that encountered by Van's friend and daughter in the beach situation.

By the way, the "hero" didn't have a scratch on him and the cops got a clear picture of the scumbag (a known felon) on the surveilance tapes!!


[This message has been edited by Moe Mensale (edited 12-22-98).]

Moe, score one for the good guys. This is a perfect example of how I've said that assaults come out of nowhere. This is a perfect case of where someone has to go from zero to an unstoppable force to be reckoned with in the blink of an eye.

This is exactly the type of response we should hope for in the same situation. The defender put his life on the line without thinking about it to save someone dear to him.

We could take lessons from the gentleman!

VTY

Kevin

Kevin,

I'm not sure I agree with you about this being exactly the type of response I would have wanted. Again, this is one of those situations that is difficult to assess, not having all the information - the most important information leading to whether the robber with the gun was likely to shoot the clerk even if he got the money. Frankly, I think that if I was the one with the gun at my head, and someone disarmed the guy, I would undoubtedly at first be relieved.


However, shortly thereafter, I am sure I would start thinking about the fact that because of my friend's outrage that I was in danger, he put me in more danger, by risking my life while he attempted to disarm someone with a gun. Would this make me ungrateful? Perhaps. But realize that in the story, the defender by his actions, placed his friend's life (and his) in jeopardy, instead, perhaps, of only the day's receipts. Again, could the defender have observed something about the situation which indicated to him that his friend was going to be shot regardless of the outcome of the robbery? Maybe he did, and he reacted to this. But it sounds to me that in a "rightous rage" he decided to punish the robber. I am very glad it turned out the way it did, but things could have been very different, and it would have been a different kind of news story...

greg

[This message has been edited by Greg (edited 12-23-98).]

Greg, It was good to see you Saturday, Sorry I missed the party.
Sometimes we read too much into these "situation" stories & Maybe this or that... or there's a Wild Card we're not aware of. Like the guy on the beach (who had a piece). I look at the end result. Was the assailant disarmed? Yes. Was the clerk or saviour hurt? No. Then it worked. Maybe if the mute was assailed himself he'd have done something else or Maybe he had a piece. See how the Maybe's and Wild Cards come up?

Personally I believe three things on this:
1. No amount of money is worth my or my loved ones lives.
2. Someone pulling a piece on me is going to use it.
3. They are going to use the piece to try and kill me.
So I have to act accordingly.
Have a safe and Happy Holiday!
Mike

Before programming a response to armed assailants , especially when facing the gun , it is imperative that we understand the objective mindset of the criminal under the most common attack scenarios ! Your time to unleash the anger response must be matched to a workable strategy which you have thought about , considered and understood , before going into any action mode! This must be cultivated to the point where your subconscious , having decided it is indeed a time to react in certain response stimulus , triggers motion instantly , as defense against force of arms is even more so mated to reaction time ! Again , in a life and death situation , if you must take time to think about your countervailing measures , you will diminish your chances of survival ! BUT WHAT ACTION TO TAKE ? That is the vexing question !!

Please bear in mind that the average thug bent on a crime can pull the trigger of the gun in seven-tenths of a second …and he will be adrenalized and jittery with "a hair trigger" disposition [ lots of times his gun will go off without his meaning to fire it ] !

Also as you take any action or not , you will have a tendency to panic against a weapon , you will stop breathing , the lack of oxygen to your brain will make it difficult to think the proper strategy ; the fine motor coordination will disappear under the chemical cocktail [ You traditional > super trained ? , Ultra-mushin believers ....keep on dreaming ] !..…

You go against the gun , armed or unarmed, chances are either you or a bystander will get shot or killed or paralyzed from the neck down , and even if you survive while someone else gets shot , you are guaranteed a lifetime of misery and law suits !

Should you ever go against the gun ? Yes ..we will get into that in future posts , but for now please remember that police experts teach that "during an armed robbery of an open business , the criminal's objective is different from when assaulting you on the street or in your home . His focus is seldom on you -it's money and speed ; get the money and get out " [ Strong] ! Exceptions ? Yes ---I had one case where the woman opened the safe then she was shot in the back of the head with a shotgun ! But rare ! So think twice before going for the armed punk in a robbery , you may trigger a carnage , maybe yours alone !

Van

Canna sensei: I am usually a lurker on this page but have often considered what I would do if confronted with a gun.

Richmond VA is relatively safe in most places but really nasty in a few, in fact regularly ranking in the top 5 per capita murders among cities.

I agree that in a crowded place, such as a bank, action would be counter productive. While bank robberies are up around here, most often a gun is never seen. However, for sreet assaults, a nasty pattern has developed. The victim is found shot in the head. Every week, when the 'Metro' section of the paper list crimes, there is the 'victom found shot in the head' notation.

My current mindset is that if alone, or with my wife, in a solitary place, and a gun is pointed at ME, I must go for the gun. Period. The current trend is to kill, then rob. It is easier for the criminal. With the high percentage of shots to the head in area homicides, it is clear that no mercy is shown. I will not make it easy.

Any thoughts?

Rich in Richmond

I think about this every so often , when working in my pharmacy. My thoughts...

I am not a hero. If someone comes in and wants the drugs of abuse, I will give him whatever he wants, and may even make a few recommendations. I will use whatever "chi" necessary to make sure me any of my co-workers of staff are hurt. I will act quickly, deliberately and non-angrily and give him whatever drugs he wants.

If I think I can get to it without him noticing, I MAY hit the panic button. It is a silent alarm to the police.

If he then pulls that hammer back on his gun, or raises it to fire, then I fight. I have no hope then, so if I am dead why not?

Hopefully, if it comes to that I will have used that positive "chi" to keep myself at ease, my heart rate down, my BP under control and my breathing enough to keep my functional. Maybe I even notice something in or about him that I can use to my advantage.

Maybe I don't need mushin throught the entire incident. If I decide to fight, if I could have that presence of mind, for that one instant when I need it, hopefully I will be victorious. However. ONLY if I need to fight when I am dead if I don't

The situation you describe , Rich , makes for the extreme measure to go for the gun rather than to be passive and die without a fight ! You may still die when charging the gun , but you may buy a few precious moments for your wife /children to get away , if they don't freeze in their tracks first , which is very possible !

Here is what the general view of the experts is when mindsetting to go against a gun ,unarmed, in a desperate effort to save your life:

1] First , [ Even if you dislike guns] you must familiarize yourself with what a gun feels like in your hands and the dynamics of it's function before you can visualize ways to neutralize the hand hold of the assailant !

2] Understand the mind set of the man with the gun ! He is usually a coward who really believes the gun makes him invincible and is very confident of his intimidation factor , thereby getting complacent and not even thinking of a surprise unarmed counterattack !

3] Most people shot by a handgun do not die [less than 10% do] ; if you charge the gun , you may only be hit once, as opposed to five or more times if you stand still or retreat ! The more the hits , the more the chances of dying !

4] Once your adrenaline flows , you will not feel much pain initially from a shot , and you can continue moving unless hit in the spinal cord or the brain !

5] The rule of thumb when fighting a man with a weapon [ club, knife, gun etc.] , is to disable the man holding the weapon and not initially going for a disarm technique ! This means you must first concentrate on deflecting or isolating the weapon away from your target areas ; next fight him to disable ; then take away the weapon !
[ Our bunkais are not performed properly by lots of us who insist in throwing counters , such as elbow strikes, without first isolating or controlling the "weapon" arm , thinking their elbow counter is their technique of doom ] !

6] If you are facing the gun on the street , it will probably be from five to one foot away , if the criminal is bent on shooting you in the head , giving you some chance at a sudden surprise rush !

7] The hardest part here is to make yourself do something under the gun ! You must mindset well in advance , over and over , to propel yourself into the weapon in a split second as soon as you perceive the danger ….any hesitation will kill you for sure ! Most of us will freeze anyway , regardless of mindsetting !!

8] One suggested approach , as you careen into your assailant , is to visualize an imaginary straight line of fire between the gun and your body/head , and to curve into him around that line ! As you close the distance , remember that any fancy bunkai technique you think you know , will deteriorate quickly if it relies on fine motor moves ! It is recommended that you charge with a double shuto and forearms into the wrist / hand /arm holding the weapon following through for maximum deflection/isolation by grasping the arm and holding it out of harms way , while you try to stun with knee strikes , elbows / take downs etc. Then take the weapon away !
This is where the head butt is king ! A vicious debilitating technique for some of you who wish to embrace it's practice !! Also think of 'biting' chunks off his face to get his mind off the gun he is holding ! And when that close , don't be adverse to sticking a finger in his eyes ! Rip out the throat ..remember this life or death ..if he gets that gun back on target , you are done for at that range ! You must turn into a vicious animal to prevail physically and mentally over the gun wielding punk !

9] Expect the gun to go off with deafening noise , blinding flash and hot powder gases which may well blind you if the shot is close to your eyes ! That is another reason why you should know what a gun feels and sounds like before you even think of going against one !

10] If you succeed in stopping the threat and you take the weapon away , you will have to secure the gun , handle it safely before it goes off in your hands under stress and or hold it in such a way that it is not a threat to bystanders or responding police ! If police arrive drop the gun ..throw it away from you and the assailant !


All very complex and demanding ….most of us will not be able to handle the charging of the gun ..will go into denial …and into a freshly dug grave !


Van Canna

Rich,

Glad you're not 'lurking' any longer! I know next to nothing about Richmond (the only time I was there briefly was about 16 years ago). I wonder, though, whether the facts you point out about crime stats "...for sreet assaults, a nasty pattern has developed. The victim is found shot in the head...The current trend is to kill, then rob..." really applies to the general populace? In other words, is 'shoot first, rob second' something which is being done as a method of robbery, or is it that gangbangers are shooting each other in the head, and then, incidentally robbing each other?

I suppose in some ways, it doesn't really matter, but I was (1) curious, and (2) cautious about the information. It sounds like the kind of thing we sometimes hear on the evening news, with alarming headlines like "Is the new trend in crime to kill first and rob second? Story at 11." The only reason I bring it up at all is that while all of us need to make our own decisions about facing an assailant, with or without a weapon, it is crucial, as sensei points out time and again, to prepare oneself beforehand for the possibility of these events. From a strictly training perspective, perhaps it would be simpler to train to attack as soon as one sees a weapon, and not have to go through the time consuming (and tremendously difficult under extreme stress) assessment process toward determining the wisest course of action. Since this preparation must occur before the event, the information we have beforehand affects this. If I know that a significant number of people who were not into 'underworld' stuff have been getting shot in the head preparatory to robbing them, this is going to make it significantly more likely that I am going to say "f--- it," and go for the gun. On the other hand, if my information indicates to me that it is extremely unlikely that even when faced with a gun, I will be shot (because I live in a different city, live in the suburbs, am a different age and/or ethnicity than the majority of the victims etc.) but rather will only be robbed, then I am going to prepare very differently for such an occurence.

As I said, we all need to make our own choices, and live (or die) by them. I am not trying to call anyone's decisions into question, I just want to make sure that I have the best information (technical and otherwise) I can to make my decisions about this.

greg

Greg: Richmond's violent crime is in fact concentrated in about three areas that are easily avoided, and the crimes are frequently gangbanger vs. gangbanger. However, the really bad areas ring the city center and there is spillover. Worse yet, the violence is moving to the parking lots of suburban shopping malls, theaters etc. where lots of people with money are coming and going after dark.

My wife recently missed a bank robbery by about thirty minutes. I was driving by a bit afterward in time to see the police and dogs combing the area and thought to myself that Linda was in the area; Wow, was she at the bank? It turns out this fellow was armed and dangerous. Last year a pair entered a bank with guns blazing, using assault weapons to clear the area and killing a teller and wounding a guard. I am ever vigilant at the bank now.

As I travel a bit, occasionally I am in a strange place and my 'alarms' go off. Looking for a factory site in an old part of Philadelphia can be interesting. Or booking a hotel in an unknown area can also lead to cause for concern when arriving late at night and finding that it is really not a nice place to be. In any event, no matter how careful I am, sometimes I end up in a location of questionable safety.

To Van: I do own a few firearms and practice with them a couple times a year. My handgun is a simple stainless Ruger Safety Six, slow to shoot but relatively safe to handle. With the 22 magnum cylinder in, it is in fact deafening and requires ear protection when target shooting. Also, I occasionally shoot trap with a 12 guage so I am accustommed to the sound, flash, etc. The last time out, about two months ago, you had just noted that if someone was within 20 feet and rushed, it would be extremely difficult to get an accurate shot off. Even unholstered, getting my 'Six' up, cocked, aimed and fired took several seconds. Under stress, I'd probably shoot myself in the foot.

I've experienced Maloney sensei's disarms at summer camp. He advised getting a hand on the action, pushing the barrel away, then twist up or away violently. and don't let go of the gun. I purchased his video and have tested a few disarms against students and they do work. One must be careful to not break off friendly fingers however. One thing that really works is to beg and plead or whatever before moving on the gun as it does slow the response. When doing this and then getting the gun most people say 'you didn't tell me to get ready', which is the point Jim Maloney makes. The element of surprise helps a lot.

As for the act of grabbing over the action, it saved a female police officer in Richmond last year. In a scuffle with a much larger person, her gun was pulled out of her holster and put into her face (a Sig Sauer 9mm I believe). She reached out and put here hand on top of the gun as it was fired. She recounts that as she was looking into the barrel she heard the 'click'. But no shot! By this time another officer arrived and subdued the criminal. Upon review, her skin was pinched in the action and slowed down the hammer, pin, or whatever, just enough that the shell did not fire. A spokesman stated that the primer was dented, and perhaps another thousandth of an inch of motion would have fired the gun. Wow. God was with her that day.

In any event, if a gun is pointed at me within a few feet, I have visualized grabbing the action and then tearing a few fingers out of the bad guys hand if necessary to get the gun.

Any thoughts on that course of action?

Thanks, Rich

Hello Rich,

Because you have mentally rehearsed possibilities of such an encounter, you probably already increased your chances of survival. You have considered how you will control this type of attack, should it ever occur, even if it would be far different than what you imagined.

Allen

[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 12-27-98).]

Rich ,

I learned the disarms that Jim Maloney teaches at the LFI institute initially and I continue to reinforce the techniques every year with Maloney at camp ! But >> The problem is that none of us really practices the disarms on a daily or even weekly basis , thus they will be wanting in a real crisis !

Another big problem is that , in spite of the way the techniques are presented , they remain fine motor applications to a certain extent [ think about the sequence …left hand intercepting the action of a waving gun and pushing aside .. web of right Hand slapping and grabbing under the trigger guard plus the twisting motion to disarm ] >>> You 've got to believe that you will loose fine motor skills/coordination under stress , they will simply vanish !! Thus some experts like to teach gross motor /deflection applications as in my previous post!

If you are trained in a continuos manner in those techniques [ much like katas /bunkais] and if really master them >>> then They will be an automatic response should the chance to disarm present itself !

You go against a gun , every fraction of a second is critical to your survival >>>> and you will hesitate ….believe that ! >> ! So if you want to mindset and practice to go for a weapon , you need some serious practice not some half ass dress rehearsal !


But , the disarms will have a fair chance of succeeding only if you are very close to the weapon hand [one to three feet] so that your action will beat his reaction to pull the trigger ! At five feet away he can shoot with little challenge and his reaction to your advance will get you shot ! Remember ..the person will fire in 7/10th of a second ! So charging the gun from 'a distance' requires a different approach !

As to an effective handgun to carry and put into action quickly , the consensus sways to a .38 special Smith an Wesson Two inch snubnose "Centennial" hammer -less , which can be concealed and fired from a pocket !

Van

Canna sensei: Good advice. Now, how can I get effective serious practice without really creating dangerous situations? I've considered blanks and starter pistols but they are dangerous up close. Likewise, when just staging a scenerio I have come dangerously close to breaking fingers, thumbs, etc in the process.

Any guidance will be appreciated.

Regards, Rich

Gene, You want to speak with Vinny Christiano about your pharmacy!
Mike