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 Post subject: Rules of Engagement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:50 pm 
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I'm moving this discussion from Rick's forum, where it has no place, to this forum, where such topics are fair game:

Here is Van's first post which focuses on the VSD issues, along with other, non-thread issues:

Quote:
> This was when he took on a very condescending tone and explained that ALL KaRAte moves were self defence moves and that when a real attack occurred your Kata will come out and allow you to protect yourself. <

*It should not surprise the readers of this forum. It is a delusive mindset perpetuated by dojo rats.

I’d like to know why so many duck this question I have asked for years:

Why did tomoyose sensei state, in relation to Uechi’s use for self defense, WAIT TEN YEARS, THEN MAYBE ?

Why would he have said that?

> So what is my issue? The student believed that “somehow” his Karate would just emerge and save him. He had no concept of the training required to achieve and maintain the presence of being to allow that to happen. He thought it was just something that happened when you did Karate. <

*Sure lots of things can happen doing karate, like ending up in a pine box.

So what is this Mushin thing anyway eh?

Well it could be a Chinese dish you can order at a Chinese restaurant.
_________________
Van Canna


With my reply:

Quote:
Up to the teacher..
I'd prefer not to "diss" the concept, simply because I don't like it. There are quite a few good teachers who use Traditional terms to describe complex Western concepts.

We could call it TC, or BS, providing the teacher didn't mislead his/her students regarding what was being taught and what the student might expect in the way of results.

"Mushin" can be a simple way to describe a teaching method as Rick proposes. Teachers who claim Mushin has some sort of magical power are simply misleading their students.

On the other hand, how do we explain the successful defenses made by people who train this way and the unsuccessful defenses made by tough guys, trained by the very best modern experts, with most modern methods?

Guess a lot goes back to the individual, not the method.

I teach my methods using terms like "mushin" to describe a state of mind that was taught to me by Tomoyose. It is just another tool, super simplified for teaching purposes.
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GEM

Followed by Van's post:

Quote:
quote:
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I'd prefer not to "diss" the concept, simply because I don't like it. There are quite a few good teachers who use Traditional terms to describe complex Western concepts.
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I don’t see the concept being “dissed” but questioned and explored.
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quote:
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Guess a lot goes back to the individual, not the method.

I teach my methods using terms like "mushin" to describe a state of mind that was taught to me by Tomoyose. It is just another tool, super simplified for teaching purposes.
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And that is a good explanation because it points to it _ as a "component part" of the defensive state of mind but not the "whole package"
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quote:
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We could call it TC, or BS, providing the teacher didn't mislead his/her students regarding what was being taught and what the student might expect in the way of results.
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This brings a smile to my face, George. So how do we define BS in teaching? And how is a student to know when he being fed BS?
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Van Canna


Followed by my post:

Quote:
"dissed"
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quote:
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Inflected Form(s): dissed; dis·sing
Etymology: perhaps short for disrespect
1 slang : to treat with disrespect or contempt : INSULT
2 slang : to find fault with : CRITICIZE
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quote:
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So what is this Mushin thing anyway eh?

Well it could be a Chinese dish you can order at a Chinese restaurant.
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_________________
GEM


Followed by Van's post:

Quote:
quote:
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So what is this Mushin thing anyway eh?

Well it could be a Chinese dish you can order at a Chinese restaurant.
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Just a joke my friend.

And my way to stimulate controversy and traffic. But you know that.

BTW, I unfortunately misplaced Tomoyose sensei's address.

Can you email it to me? I'd like to ask him his reasons for the statement he made
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quote:
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Self-defense? Wait ten years, then maybe.
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Thanks.
_________________
Van Canna

09 Feb 2004 13:34


Van Canna



Joined: 11 Mar 1999
Posts: 8219


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quote:
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On the other hand, how do we explain the successful defenses made by people who train this way and the unsuccessful defenses made by tough guys, trained by the very best modern experts, with most modern methods?
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Very good question.

One that can be answered with another, emerging from a post by Darren
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quote:
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I must state here however that there are many many, many more violent encounters in which people survived that had no training (be it traditional or modern combatives) than there are those who do train.
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Why did this happen?


Rick provides one of the answers
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quote:
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the bottom line is that you are responding with what has been ingrained. If that is based on poor training then that is what you are expecting to emerge. If your training has been well direct, just as Darren says can be done for all traditional martial arts, then that is what will emerge.
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Another answer is __ it depends on who and what we are, genetically, then on the “how” and on the “When” and the nature of the threat and the enemy.

Mushin is a sound concept, if properly “primed” as Rick opines.
_________________
Van Canna



Followed by my post:

Quote:
Aside from all this We have different forums so that subjects can be approached from different perspectives.

Lots of martial artist use traditional terms to teach. Our objective is to provide a forum for those people as well as those who only wish to discuss topics from a Western scientific mindset.

By having different forums, we are not making any value judgements as to which method is best. We are just trying to give everyone an opportunity to discuss the way they train, where others are respectful and understanding.

I have a lot more to say on this subject, but must run for a meeting.... As Panther says.... "be good to one another"!
PS: Van, I know you were joking and I know this is you and actually, I get a laugh out of a lot of your barbs. But, the side of me that oversees 20+ forums must try to read comments the way everyone else reads them. Most of these people don't know you and may not appreciate the fact that you are pulling their leg. . . as I do. Hence, my request. . . Of course, you can privately pull my leg as much as you want. . .
_________________
GEM


followed by Van's response:

Quote:
Most, if not all of the comments about my forum have been very positive. Not that I really care, I might add, because I do not intentionally offend or name anyone in my barbs.

A few of the ones who have made negative comments, usually have an axe to grind, and take the easy way out, by writing to you trying to get to me.

There was a time you went on record to say that you would not tolerate offensive email “behind someone’s back” and that if you received any of it you would post it on the web!

I know some of the whiners who have done this. Has your position changed? If not I’d love to see those “complaints” posted, so I can deal with them directly.

As I said before, if a moderator must worry about what will be “read” into every word he writes, his/her job would be unbearable, I suspect this a reason why not many volunteer for the tough job. Being on the front lines scares a lot of people.

What I try to do is to “jolt” so as to stimulate a response, because if I don’t, the stuff gets glossed over in mind torpor, words blurring, people remaining non-committal.

Disagreement, controversy, and differences of opinion are what life is all about, and what forums are for.

I see Moderating this forum as a management function that evaluates public beliefs and attitudes on a variety of subjects, [this forum dealing with the protection component,] then entailing the identifying of a “commonality” of interests and workable proven concepts as set forth by a tight Experts’ “coalition”, and then executing a “search and evaluate” program to bring about deeper understanding into something that takes such a big chunk out of our lives and upon which our very lives may depend on.

One example of this is the “back lot” experience by a couple of brothers.
VAN _________________


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:09 pm 
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Hopefully we can first understand why we have a rule about "sticking to the topic".

The second point I wish to emphasize, is the rule that we not make insulting statements about individuals, style of martial arts or methods of training.

To jumpstart this topic, I'll first focus on one type of statement which can cause problems:

We should not say something like:

1. Joe Jones is stupid, because he practices hojo undo, which expert Jim Potus, after extensive research, has shown will not work against a knife attack.

2. People (unnamed in this instance) who practice hojo undo, are delusional and wasting their time.

3. Hojo undo is a delusional practice, proven by experts to be a waste of time and unworkable in knife attacks.

Although in #2 and #3, no one is named, the statements violate the rules of our forum as I interprete them. In the first instance, a person is named and obviously insulted. In the second and third cases, the statement targets an easily identifiable system and method of practice favored by many practitioners and therefore an insulting statement to them.

If the statement were more general in nature, it might be less offensive:

1a: "Warm-up exercises involving self-defense movements are a waste of time."

Here, the poster is expressing a more general opinion and not targeting a specific style or group of identifiable martial artist.
=================================

I have a class in 20 minutes, so will have to continue this discussion later. Naturally, I invite anyone who wish to contribute to this discussion to do so, providing they stick to this first issue pertaining to the rule mentioned at the beginning of the post.

_________________
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject: Perceptions...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:41 pm 
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I'll try to answer this comment and also address some VSD issues:

Quote:
> This was when he took on a very condescending tone and explained that ALL KaRAte moves were self defence moves and that when a real attack occurred your Kata will come out and allow you to protect yourself. <

*It should not surprise the readers of this forum. It is a delusive mindset perpetuated by dojo rats.


Here, Rick described an encounter his student had with another Shohei-ryu student. I'm not going to try and defend the person who first off, didn't know what Uechi-ryu was or who made such an inflated statement of his/her belief in his/her training.

Following, Rick qualified his statement in a concise way, that limited his remarks in a way that would not be misunderstood:

Quote:
So what is my issue? The student believed that “somehow” his Karate would just emerge and save him. He had no concept of the training required to achieve and maintain the presence of being to allow that to happen. He thought it was just something that happened when you did Karate.


As the person who probably is responsible for at least part of this saying, I can understand how easily such a remark can be misunderstood. I look at the saying more as a confidence builder and something that the old masters believed was possible with enough practice.

I still believe in this saying, although I would always qualify the statement with the usual conditions.

BTW, I believe all expert sportspeople could say the same about how they perform their sport.

Now we can certainly disagree over the purpose of karate and whether is is self-defense only or can we justify preemptive strikes, etc. . But we should be careful how we make our viewpoints known. We have learned over the last couple of weeks, that no one has the lock on the "only" method. And we also agree that as teachers and students, we each have our own reasons for studying and no one should be preaching, trying to convert non-believers. Presnt your beliefs and let others make their own decisions.

Remember. . . No matter what method of training or beliefs in their training we wish to discuss, many very nice people out there are doing and probably have been doing it that way for years.

Also, there are many shades of training methods that represent still many more people out there. A saying like "All is in Sanchin" is to me a very innocent saying that represents something entirely different to me than others. However, the saying is kind of a nice slogan that bonds Uechi people together.

OK, so some students believe that by doing one sanchin a week, they will, after a year, be an expert in Uechi. But on the other end of the spectrum are people like Max, who probably comes closest to training in the original way Kanbum trained in China. (just speculating for purposes of this post). Max's belief, understanding and performance of his Uechi and the person who talked to Rick's student, both say "All is in Sanchin" and "When attacked, your Uechi training will emerge. The rest of us who say these things are somewhere in between these two extremes.

So, unfortunately, when a common Uechi training method, saying or whatever is "dissed", we insult not only the people who we are targeting, but all the others who will perceive that the insult is pointed at them.

Quote:
"Be nice to one another" Panther

_________________
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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