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 Post subject: Bouncer Study
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 9:37 am 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
Interesting article:
http://www.medserv.no/article.php?sid=547

I thought this quote was especially appropriate for the VSD Forum:

"Yet, a good professional bouncer prefers to verbally intimidate potentially violent drunks. "Bouncers can all fight," Salter noted, "But they rank each other by their talking ability. The lowest ranked fought the most. The highest ranked had the best social skills."

Rory


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 Post subject: Bouncer Study
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2002 3:40 am 
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I agree. In my work investigating barroom brawls from alleged overserving of liquor, I have met and interviewed many "bouncers" _

The very best always "reasoned" the trouble makers out the door.

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Van Canna


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 Post subject: Bouncer Study
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 7:42 pm 
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Location: Irvine, CA USA
I heard that the first line of self defense was good manners.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD


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 Post subject: Bouncer Study
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 9:10 pm 
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Location: Chicago, IL USA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeiserL:
I heard that the first line of self defense was good manners.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lynn-sama,

Agreed! The ability to "nice them to death" is a quality much sought after by bar and restaurant owners.

I've worked doing magic and hypnosis shows in such places for over 30 years and the BEST bouncers are the ones who NEVER fight, but MANAGE the problem-children into quitting their escalation and MANAGING them out the door - WITHOUT the other patrons even being aware of there being a problem in the first place and often without the problem child even being aware that they WERE managed in the first place!

From my experience, the best bouncers can spot a problem long before it gets to a point of physicality, defuse the situation and can do it without anyone else even knowing that they're doing anything.

When you see that, (and you have to be VERY observant and aware) it is like watching a ballet. Poetic in motion and content and beauty.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:58 am 
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No, the first line of defense is looking like you ain't gonna take no #####.
no offense is intended, but good manners don't mean #####, if you don't look like you can back it up.

I was looking for a little extra cash so I bounced for about 6 months in 2002 and got tired of it real quick, dealing with drunks on a regular basis *****. I can say that I only got into a couple of hands on situations, and they were actually made worse by the boneheads that I had working with me at the time, dumb bastards.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:16 pm 
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Quote:
No, the first line of defense is looking like you ain't gonna take no #####.
no offense is intended, but good manners don't mean #####, if you don't look like you can back it up.

I was looking for a little extra cash so I bounced for about 6 months in 2002 and got tired of it real quick, dealing with drunks on a regular basis *****. I can say that I only got into a couple of hands on situations, and they were actually made worse by the boneheads that I had working with me at the time, dumb bastards.
- Fred Sanford

Sorry, Fred, but after 30+ YEARS of working in bars and restaurants, I have to say that manners accounts for the VAST majority of successful situation resolutions that I have ever seen.

Being physically intimidating may be all well and good, but, in many cases, coming on like that only makes things worse. In some cases, MUCH worse.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, the bumper sticker, the hat and almost got the tattoo.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com

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"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg


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 Post subject: For what its worth
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:59 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
I ran a four level Pub/Restaurant/Nightclub in Brockton MA, one of the toughest cities in New England.

I hired quite a few "bouncers" and played the role myself much of the time, as did my brother John.

One of the "hired" was a 6'8" former football player who weighed in at around 300 pounds. He looked the part, but had few skills in VSD. He was constantly getting into fights and was giving our place a bad reputation. Worse, local toughs started to target our place as a sort of "testing" ground for their fighting skills. We had to fire the monster.

I learned VSD on-the-job and believe me, it works. Nothing to do with size or "looks", everything to do with knowing people and what buttons not to push when trying to remove them from the premises. It you have an attitude and want people to think you are tough, you will have lots of opportunities to practice your fighting skills. And if you think you are the toughest dude in the world. . . well. . . Good luck!

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"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:51 am 
Quote

No, the first line of defense is looking like you ain't gonna take no #####.
no offense is intended, but good manners don't mean #####, if you don't look like you can back it up.

I was looking for a little extra cash so I bounced for about 6 months in 2002 and got tired of it real quick, dealing with drunks on a regular basis *****. I can say that I only got into a couple of hands on situations, and they were actually made worse by the boneheads that I had working with me at the time, dumb bastards.

** hey guys I think he`s got a point , Ive done a bit of bouncing and have friends who still do , In my experience you need both , it`sreally a carrot and stick approach , VSD to contain the situation and give them an option out while saving face , and on the other hand remaining calm and in controll and having a presence so they know theres nothing to be gained from escalating , But I guess this is all VSD even the body language and projected presence ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 9:58 am 
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Definately manners and being professional are important, but having a strong presence also counts. That's basically all I was trying to say. Be polite as you want, if the other person thinks they can spit in your face they probably will. That and the fact that I haven't been too impressed by most bouncers I have met.

I work private security out in good old liberal San Francisco and most peeps aren't used to seeing security that is actually proactive. It's unusual that I don't get called rascist at least once or twice a day. But we have tools such as informing people that they will be arrested for trespassing if they don't leave (and arresting them if they don't leave), it being private property and all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:12 am 
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Location: brandon, fl, usa
I know this is an abandoned topic, but I don't get into the VSD forum very often. I worked as a bouncer for three years while in college, coincidentally 2 1/2 of which were at a club that contracted Roy Bedard as a security consultant.

This thread caught my interest immediately, and if the importance of VSD hasn't been shown sufficiently for some, here's another good reason:

At the small bar where I got my start, one of the bouncers I worked with was an accomplished grappler. He never taught me any techniques, but he did relate a story of a fight he got in when he worked in Boston. An amateur boxer decided to resist when my coworker escorted him out. The result was my coworker getting him to the ground, and inflicting multiple serious injuries (broke ribs, nose, even eye sockets). Was this an example of my coworker bragging about his physical capabilities? No. The moral of his story was that he was named in a pending multi-million dollar lawsuit, and that I should be very careful.

I took this to heart, and never sought out physical confrontations. I think there are a lot of things that make a good bouncer. Size and strength are near the bottom of the list. The second club I worked at was multi-level, about 1500 person capacity, and had 20-25 bouncers on staff. At one point almost half of our staff was made up of the FAMU football team (thanks to the hiring practices of ignorant management), and they were practically worthless. Their size and strength did not keep people from challenging them, and worse, when help was needed they were usually engaged with female clientel or friends at the club. Some balked when their acquaintances were involved. For me, alertness and loyalty are at the top of my list.

This article also does not mention tools used by bouncers. Every member of our staff carried a flashlight. Mine was a 4 D cell maglite. I never once had to use it as a weapon. I did, however, use it more times than I can count to signal for backup in a loud, dark club, and to direct traffic. I also carried pepperspray. No, not everyone did, and yes, I knew better than to use it inside. One member of our staff carried pepperfoam for indoor use.

Finally, I would stress diversity and teamwork among the staff. We had a wide range of races, ages, and even had both sexes working as bouncers. I'm not the best talker, but often worked with someone who could "sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves." Having a person for every situation made an enormous difference.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:57 pm 
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Location: Chicago, IL USA
Austin-sama,

Excellent point regarding the physical issues of bouncing.

We live in a litigous society - one where lawsuits are filed over everything from a cop shooting someone who was shooting at him to whether the celery was wiled in a Bloody Mary.

Club owners mos ofen look for he kind of bouncer ha can handle an incident without ANYONE else knowing that anything is going on.

Such situations call for skill, tact, diplomacy and a firm understanding of human behavior while "under the influence."

Great post!

Sincerely,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
hp://www.leedarrow.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:01 pm 
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Location: NY
Have you ever seen Tombstone? When Wyatt just tears appart Johnny (tire?, played by billybob thornton).

Despite the slapping, it was a great example of bouncer style VSD.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:52 am 
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Location: Kent, WA
I have to agree that an 'aware' bouncer that diffuses a situation by positive mannersism while maintaining a mutually respectful aura (instilled by your look, body language and actions that you wont cause trouble, but you will not put up with trouble), are the most effective 'bouncers'.

Another key action was by being aware ... communicating any 'signs' of possible trouble to the bouncers so that if anything happened, everyone knew what was going on and could act appropriately and the situation would be handled quickly if need be ... by a show of force and tactful talking ... or taking care of a worse case scenario.

I also agree with 'area management' as well.

At one place we had a guy that always through people into a choke at the first sign of trouble... needless to say he didnt last long.

As for size ... I had a friend of a freind who was HUGE, with an attitude. He got off one night and got capped in the head .... all respect to him .... but it shows an important lessen in how one should act in this type of position.

Humbly,

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Michael


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:58 am 
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Location: Chicago, IL USA
Michael, you mentioned, in passing, a very important part of successful bouncong - teamwork.

Going to a "zone defense" method, where each member of the bouncer team has overwatch of his buddies - and there'a an actual PLAN in effect for dealing with a problem - or specific TYPES of problems - shows a professional bouncer team and club management.

Such teams are rare - an example of one that should have been in place and was not was the incident in Chicago recently - where pepper spray was used and some people got dead because of it.

A professionally trained team would not have had that happen.

Great post!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com

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"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:18 pm 
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Thank you ... I appreciate your very useful insighted posts as well :D

Humbly,

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Michael


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