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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 4:43 pm 
Bill posted this thread on Ricks forum and I found it insulting , was this all my perception ? , how does one avoid getting highjacked ?

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Too bad others do not join in with their opinions.
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Be careful what you ask for, my friend!

Very, very interesting discussion.

To start, I want to say I agree with many of the points of view here. Go figure... In any case, I see it somewhat like the story of the dozen blind men touching the elephant. Each will discribe something different, but all are touching the elephant. In the end, it takes all of their opinions to describe what "it" is.

Allow me to digress for just a few seconds. Proper spellings are...

Zanshin , and NOT zanchin. Check out the link provided.

Boshiken, and NOT bushiken. Boshi = thumb. Ken = fist.

Now...

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What I would like to ask is if Uechi Ryu is a sport style?
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IMO, no - strictly speaking. Judo, Wresting, and Boxing are the prototypical sport styles.


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Do we have to alter Uechi Ryu too drastically to fit into the sport rules?
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That IMO depends on your definition of what Uechi Ryu is.

Do I have to alter my Uechi Ryu too drastically to rock climb so I can find a more modern (and fun) way to train Uechi hands?

Do I have to alter my Uechi Ryu to do traditional freeweight training? BTW on that one, a great coach (John Gamble) once told me "You come into this room to get strong and develop coordination and proprioception. Leave all your activity-related movements on the playing field." Interesting to see how this man's attitude in the 1980s has now become gospel in the 21st century.

Do I have to alter my Uechi Ryu too drastically to do sport karate? This will be debated forever.

On the one hand, I'm glad I FINALLY have an ally like Rick who sees the merits of "Uechi pointy things," and the importance of training them. Tomoyose's words meant a lot to me too, Rick. You go, man!

On the other hand, it's just one element of your training.

* Like sanchin. What the hell are we doing in that kata anyhow? Is that fighting? Think about it.

* Like kami training. Doesn't look like fighting to me...

* Like body conditioning.

* Etc.

A few other thoughts...

This IMO is just one of those things that should be "out there." Uechi Ryu and other styles are an a la carte affair. Right now, I believe you are doing the right thing, Rick. But if your dojo gets bigger, if your clientele begin to span the ages and stick around for more than a few years, etc., etc., then one day you might be happy to have a sport karate specialist in your fold.

I now have a MCMAP black belt in my dojo. He can't teach us squat of what he learned and what he knows. But is there collateral benefit? You bet. Do they do Uechi techniques in real life? You bet. Is it pure Uechi? No. Is it real fighting? Are you kidding?? Does he teach me (us) something with this cross-training journey? You bet.

More later.

- Bill

26 May 2004 15:54



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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 4:45 pm 
To which I responded with the following post , could I have exspressed myself clearer ?

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Be careful what you ask for, my friend!

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Hey Rick watch out , Bills a coming

Allow me to digress a moment Bill


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IMO, no - strictly speaking. Judo, Wresting, and Boxing are the prototypical sport styles.
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I think it`s spelt Wrastling or was that wresting


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This IMO is just one of those things that should be "out there." Uechi Ryu and other styles are an a la carte affair. Right now, I believe you are doing the right thing, Rick. But if your dojo gets bigger, if your clientele begin to span the ages and stick around for more than a few years, etc., etc., then one day you might be happy to have a sport karate specialist in your fold.


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Bill I`ve always been a gentleman right ? , well your not behaving like one , I know this post will be deleted , You once again attack Ricks club and his students .

Rick has some very talented Martial artists and they have a wide cross training circle , I`m sure you read about his camp .

Rick has people from very diverse backgrounds visiting his dojo regularly .

Rick already has a sports karate specialist around from time to time .




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I now have a MCMAP black belt in my dojo. He can't teach us squat of what he learned and what he knows. But is there collateral benefit? You bet. Do they do Uechi techniques in real life? You bet. Is it pure Uechi? No. Is it real fighting? Are you kidding?? Does he teach me (us) something with this cross-training journey? You bet.

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Rich Is the best he has my deepest Respect for what he has done . But his accomplishments have nothing to do with your accomplishments , Rick`s school is all about cross training and growing , just because he dislikes points competition does not give you the right to consider him closed minded .






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On the one hand, I'm glad I FINALLY have an ally like Rick who sees the merits of "Uechi pointy things," and the importance of training them. Tomoyose's words meant a lot to me too, Rick. You go, man!

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I`m getting to be a convert on the pointy things too , I`m not sold on the toes yet but am working on it .

With friends like you Bill .....


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* Like sanchin. What the hell are we doing in that kata anyhow? Is that fighting? Think about it.
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Sanchin is a fighting form IMHO , I know what i`m doing in that kata , are people really confused about this ?


I agree with competition as a tool , and under that I assume that`s the point you were trying to communicate , and I get the feeling you were encouraging Rick at the same time in a way that is clearly derogatory and condesending .


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 5:33 pm 
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Allow me to digress for just a few seconds. Proper spellings are...

Zanshin , and NOT zanchin. Check out the link provided.

Boshiken, and NOT bushiken. Boshi = thumb. Ken = fist
Is this wise? To publicly point out spelling errors, don’t we all make them? What is to gain by demeaning some one in public? Japanese and Chinese terms are not spelled with our letters, some words have several spellings. Take Chou Tsu Ho as an example. Canada is spelled Kanada in Germany, but we still understand the region they refer to. To correct a German for spelling it with a K would be anal. What would it add to the discussion? I don’t see Bills spelling corrections as insulting, some might view them pompous. It really is funny when he makes a spelling error as he is correcting Ricks. I like to start the day off with a smile. BTW I avoid all the confusion by referring to it as the “thumb strike”. I’m teaching self-defense and not a 2nd language, too each their own.

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This IMO is just one of those things that should be "out there." Uechi Ryu and other styles are an a la carte affair. Right now, I believe you are doing the right thing, Rick. But if your dojo gets bigger, if your clientele begin to span the ages and stick around for more than a few years, etc., etc., then one day you might be happy to have a sport karate specialist in your fold.
Now I find this personally insulting and offensive, I also feel it is condescending. It’s as though your treating Sensei Wilson as a fledgling in the Arts. Rick has been at it for over a quarter of a century and has trained in many arts as well. I see him as the real deal and am upset by what I see as another pot shot by you at my friend and my dojo mates. Why do you keep posting in this manner? Is it your intent to disparage Rick, his dojo and his martial friends? This is the prevailing tone that keeps coming across. Is this the message you wish to send? Will you come online and explain Bill or will this be like the thread on Vans forum were you cast aspersions and then vanish into the night, never to answer for your words?

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 5:47 pm 
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Aside from calling out our supposed spelling errors (and even then it was just de minimus), I found nothing insulting about Bill's post, and I understood what he was trying to say. I disagree in part and agree with him in part.

That's just me....

Gene


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:17 pm 
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this difference of opinion here, where it will not hijack the interesting thread on Rick's forum.

Some suggestions:

1. Refer people to the original thread to view the entire post.

2. Edit the information that is objectionable and post that information here. I don't think Bill's entire post was in question and it saves time to focus on what the problem is all about.

The issues as I see it:

a. Bill corrected my spelling, not Rick's. (Rick simply cut/paste sections of my "Rules" summary, which I cut/paste from sensei Fagan's documents. I didn't have time to look up the words and didn't get to Rick's forum until after you guys posted. So..... Hey Bill, thanks for correcting my spelling. Susan does it all the time and I don't find anything objectionable about this. So.... if anyone should be pissed about Bill helping me out with the correct spelling, guess it should be me. And I'm not. :)

b. Reference to Rich's ability. I think Bill wrote this as a "pat on the back" to Rich, not a "knock". We've been complimenting Rich many, many times for his accomplishments and Bill is his number 1 fan.

c.
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This IMO is just one of those things that should be "out there." Uechi Ryu and other styles are an a la carte affair. Right now, I believe you are doing the right thing, Rick. But if your dojo gets bigger, if your clientele begin to span the ages and stick around for more than a few years, etc., etc., then one day you might be happy to have a sport karate specialist in your fold.


I didn't find anything offensive about this statement, although I can see that it could be interpreted to be a "dig". If a stranger had said that about my dojo, I might take offense. If the statement bothers Rick, I'd ask Bill to remove or edit it. Since we are trying to learn by our mistakes, I'd suggest making a general comment and not addressing any individual. "Small dojo that focus on a specific training philosophy..... etc, etc...

d.
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Like sanchin. What the hell are we doing in that kata anyhow? Is that fighting? Think about it.


I read this a something that we all understand and certainly wasn't addressed to an individual. I think the sentence would make a great topic. After all, we all do Sanchin, but how many of us fight, standing in Sanchin stance/arm position? Reminds me of a story of a fight on Okinawa in 1957. . . (Maybe will tell it later)

Thats enough for now.

_________________
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:22 pm 
Maybe Americans english is just more confrontational than others , I dont get it , I think I`m not contributing to the forums the way there going .

there are differences in attitudes among folks and I see where it makes things difficult sometime , I cannot stand by when I perceive a slight to my friends , I cant see how Bills post can be interpreted any other way .



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But if your dojo gets bigger, if your clientele begin to span the ages and stick around for more than a few years, etc., etc.


this is probably the part MISINTERPRETED ? :roll:

I can only see this as stating Rick you are a beginner with inexperienced students and a small dojo . YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND YET :evil:

Having met Ricks students I know it`s a case of quality over quantity , something many people seem to miss in MA , I think it speaks highly of Ricks integrity .

Bill your obviously well educated , and have a long list of credentials in the martial arts , but cant you see how that can be taken , I`m sure your smart enough to see how I could be Highjacked by that ? .

I dont want this to be perceived a witch hunt , or labelled a troll , or whatever , frankly I`m considering not posting anymore , and the only reason I`m here is because of my friends and my Interest in Uechi .

I can phone my friends , and Ive got a good bunch of Uechi guys to train with .

The best to all of you

Marcus


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:29 pm 
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... 3&start=30

heres the thread

I dont beleive in deleteing things , the mature way is to apologise , kind of like printing a retraction , because once stated the damge is already done , deleting is like pretending it never happened .


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 Post subject: If your dojo gets bigger
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 7:13 pm 
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Can be interpreted in a couple of ways. I guess if you consider Bill a friend, you will take it to mean one way. If you don't know Bill, how you interprete this statement might say a lot about your mindset while reading it.

"If you dojo gets bigger" seems to be quite innocent unless the topic was about who has the biggest dojo and most students. Granted, Bill might have meant it to mean something else, but in the context of the conversation, I read it to mean "running a small dojo has certain benefits that a large dojo with many students doesn't have."

I've had many students in a huge dojo and can appreciate what Bill is talking about. My saying this shouldn't be interpreted as knocking anyone who never had a big dojo and many students and therefore shouldn't be able to understand the problems dealing with hundreds of different people who each has his/her own reasons for being at the dojo. If I have 10 students, chances are they are there for the same reason I am there. Those who don't wish to follow that path will leave. Simple fact!

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"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 7:40 pm 
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Susan does it all the time and I don't find anything objectionable about this. So.... if anyone should be pissed about Bill helping me out with the correct spelling, guess it should be me. And I'm not.
I think you missed my point George, I’m not upset about the spelling corrections. However my point was some people may not appreciate having their errors pointed out. Some people may read into it “hey I’m better than you, I went to high School at…and graduate school at… and you’re a borderline illiterate. I can spell and you can’t your stupid.” I’m not saying anyone has and I’m not saying Bill intended anything of this sort…but we are all different folks from different backgrounds. Some people are not culturally hardwired to accept public criticism. In some cultures public embarrassment it’s reason enough to disembowel some one. Try correcting someone’s spelling or grammar in prison in public and see what happens. My point was although intended as a helpful it might actually anger some people. So why do it?

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This IMO is just one of those things that should be "out there." Uechi Ryu and other styles are an a la carte affair. Right now, I believe you are doing the right thing, Rick. But if your dojo gets bigger, if your clientele begin to span the ages and stick around for more than a few years, etc., etc., then one day you might be happy to have a sport karate specialist in your fold.
________________________________________


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I didn't find anything offensive about this statement, although I can see that it could be interpreted to be a "dig". If a stranger had said that about my dojo, I might take offense. If the statement bothers Rick, I'd ask Bill to remove or edit it. Since we are trying to learn by our mistakes, I'd suggest making a general comment and not addressing any individual. "Small dojo that focus on a specific training philosophy..... etc, etc
George if you can see the dig then you can see what’s insulting. Editing is not the solution. If I say hypothetically Marcus is an A-hole, editing my post does not solve the problem.

I’ve already called the man an A-hole. What I must do is say I’m sorry I called Marucs and A-hole, he is not an A-hole, in fact I am an A-hole for calling him such and I apologize for my unacceptable behavior. We then must try and discover why I called him an A-hole in the first place, so we can fix the real problem.

****note I have Marcus’s permission to call him an A-hole in this discussion. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is my belief that this section of Bills post came across as an attempt undermine Rick’s reputation or to put it another way to talk down to him. The post started with the warning…”be careful what you ask for”. The post then went on to indirectly comment on Ricks experience level and even the size of his dojo. What does the dojo size have to do with the thread? Is Ricks opinion less valid because he has fewer students than someone else? Is his opinion less worthy because he has less time in rank? If this is the case we should close the forums to everyone except the high muckie muckies.


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 8:00 pm 
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Can be interpreted in a couple of ways. I guess if you consider Bill a friend, you will take it to mean one way. If you don't know Bill, how you interprete this statement might say a lot about your mindset while reading it.


Yes a couple of ways , and many of them are different when you dont want to see the best in your friend .

I only know Bill from the forums and his history of posting is derogatory when he questions others understanding of subjects , It`s his standard defence to a differing opinion .

I find it interesting to examine my own mindset , glad you enjoy it too .

Even if his intentions weren`t as perceived his response

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What he said... :lol:

But seriously, no slight mentioned.


Hardly are reassuring when ones goes about questioning his intent in a civil manner . :roll:

It`s a shame what these forums have become , when you have great input from so many talented people , It`s become little more than an effort at protectionisim and isolation .


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:58 am 
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"How can we avoiding being Insulting ?"

That's easy: R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

NM


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 5:20 am 
Although I feel that some of the comments are getting blown out of proportion and context, I did feel a bit of anxiety when I read the comment from Bill regarding "But if your dojo gets bigger, if your clientele begin to span the ages and stick around for more than a few years" as this shows a lack of understanding of the students, the school and of what Rick is achieving.

Please allow me to shed some light on Wilson Karate School. I have stuck around for more than a few years (quite a few actually as have several other students) for what I learn and for what I continue to learn. We explore several techniques that are not traditional Uechi but strongly add to the value of Uechi through exploring every move. Keeping an open mind is crucial to learning and encouraged by Rick.

Rick also intentionally keeps the class size small as the training and instruction is much more intimate and personal than in a dojo with 40-50 students. That is one of the reasons why I joined the school in the first place. This comes down to personal preference for what I require to train and is in no way intended to knock larger schools. Please don't misunderstand it as such.

So from the perspective of someone that does understand the Wilson Karate School, my sense of pride took a slight offense to these comments because they were incorrect and left an impression of a beginner school with beginner students who are just beginning to understanding of Uechi. Quite the contrary on all those points.

To jump into another discussion topic about the reasons why people don't post, this is the very reason why I hardly ever jump in. Too many egos, mud slinging disguised as innocent comments and the digression of topics into "He said, She said". I used to follow the threads all the time but they are becoming a mine field of fragile egos and chest pounding. And the fact that no one wants to have their head shot off for disagreeing. We all say it's OK to disagree but someone always gets their poop tied in a knot and the digression begins.

Randy


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 Post subject: Randy
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 12:49 pm 
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Considering the thousands of posts by many people who have never met one another, I am amazed that more feelings haven't been hurt.

I try to be fair and impartial arbitrator of when "lines" have been crossed. Naturally, because I know many of the posters personally, I interprete what they write in a more forgiving manner than others do, who do not know these people as well.

Randy works out with Rick and knows him much better than others who read and post here. Therefore, hewill be much more sensitive to words addressed to Rick or about Rick, then others would, who don't know either party.

I've often been accused of being too sensitive about comments made that don't affect me, but I know will affect many other martial artist. When I sense that this is happening, I will step in and stop it.

In all honesty, I didn't feel that Bill's comments would be taken in a negative manner by Rick until I heard all the outcries from his students. Since Bill could have expressed himself and made his point without the reference to Rick's dojo, I have asked Bill to edit the post in question and rephrase the comments.

Rick and I disagree on some training methods. We have been able to discuss these differences without insulting one another and without insulting the way each of us train. If we can do it, there is no reason why everyone can't do it.

I have asked the moderators to follow this simple rule and will step in when necessary to make sure that rules get followed and enforced.

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"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 1:09 pm 
Randy like the new avatar....it's got some pointy things :lol:

Nice of Bill to join us in this discussion :roll: , thanks for riding herd on us George, it makes this a better place to visit.


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 2:29 pm 
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I don't know where to start... I'll just brain dump. Perhaps that will help. I will not parse others' posts and answer countless questions. I don't think it is helpful.

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I want to thank those who know me for their understanding, and their correct interpretation of what I wrote.

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I want to invite all to meet me personally at camp. Take the time some day to watch Rich and I go at it on my forum about cars. Rich and I have very different political views. We are passionate about our beliefs. We go at it like the Timberwolves and Lakers when in a serious discussion. But Rich and I are best of friends. He's the godfather of my number 1 son. You might not know that if you just read the forums. In a more recent thread, we must have posted back and forth maybe a dozen times. Then we each went to the same workout (headed to the same gym from our respective homes). We sat and talked like brothers. We worked out. We went home. Then we got back on the forums and disagreed some more.

It helps... By engaging in the art of debate, we may or may not convince others of our point of view. But more importantly, we find ways to deal with our own understanding of things, and put ourselves in the position of learning from others who have entirely different perspectives. When a subject is complex, the discussion can become complex and perhaps heated.

I enjoy a good healthy debate with friends the same way I enjoy doing body conditioning with friends. It hurts good and I am a better person at the end of it all.

I do not enjoy hurting people.

*******************************

I'd like to quote Popeye. I ams who I ams. Take the time to meet me some time, and allow me to buy a round. The forum persona is just one small piece of me. I do my best to be sensitive to others, and I attempt to interact in a positive manner. But I'm no Martin Luther King. I do my best, and that's all I can do. I learn when it is possible.

It's worth mentioning though that some situations on these fora are quite impossible.

**********************************

I intentionally stayed away from this thread for a while for many reasons. I needed to work out. I've got a family. I've got a wife with a father going through his last days, and kids that need a dad to be 100% there. God bless them but...those whose emotions have been hijacked need to wait. And waiting is good - for both of us. Sometimes a person needs to walk away and come back. It's healthy in many ways.

I am back.

***********************************

I ask a few folks to put yourself in my shoes. I have never intended to insult Rick. Never. One of his students worked out with me several times. Rick and I ate lunch together at camp. I share many of Rick's views. We walk similar paths.

The relationship that I once had with Rick is gone - for now. There are reasons, but it would not help to go into all of them here. It would just be opening Pandora's box. We don't need to go there. Too many personalities. Too many agendas. Not enough karate and good times. Not enough learning.

However it is worth mentioning that there is baggage here. It is not possible sometimes to have an honest, healthy discussion without the pit bulls coming out and barking. I am deeply saddened. But this too shall pass. It's no reason not to engage and move on.

***********

I have had dojos of several sizes through the years. Right now, I have a relatively small dojo - like Rick. I once had a huge one at U.Va., but that was then and this is now. I've seen and worked out in George's Cambridge Street Megadojo, worked out in the Hut, and worked out in other George venues of various sizes and mixes of people.
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But if your dojo gets bigger, if your clientele begin to span the ages and stick around for more than a few years, etc., etc., then one day you might be happy to have a sport karate specialist in your fold.

Hey, right now my dojo is small, and I like that. This applies to me. Would I be offending myself? It doesn't make sense.

Perhaps those who I have offended - and I'm sure I have - feel the way they do because they don't know me, and have misinterpreted my (poor??) attempt at articulating a thought.

Once upon a time I did have a very large dojo, and some of the students had the tournament sparring itch. So I turned this over to someone who would help them scratch this itch. And many of the students came in to "get some steam blown off." So I created a stretch in the workout that was designed to work them aerobically while also practicing technique. I tailored the workout to the setting, and the needs of the students.

I like the old school, personal approach such as that experienced by George with Tomoyose sensei. Now that I don't have 40 students in a room at the same time, I get to do that. It's wonderful. I also like to see megaprograms like the ones run by Durkin sensei or Khoury sensei. It's all good to me. Each setting needs to evolve so that the experience is maximized for the students who participate. Each dojo will be run in a unique fashion. There is no need to view one or the other setting as inferior. They are what they are.

***********************

Check out the spelling corrections I made. I quite intentionally corrected the spelling of a friend who knows me, and knows I wish us all to strive for perfection. And my own spelling errors speak for themselves. :)

I didn't correct the spelling of those whom I did not know. Reread the thread.

For 14 years, I had various international students live with me. I would go to The International House at U.Va. and look for students needing roommates. We engaged in this activity because I could help them with their English/American culture, and they could help me understand their own language/culture. It was a win-win thing in a University setting.

Forever learning. Forever helping each other learn. Never disparaging. Always respect.

Perhaps this activity doesn't come across well in other settings. Perhaps I'm no longer in the dojo, where we all come to learn from each other.

My bad.
*******************************
And finally, sometimes silence and/or lack of response to a comment is wise. Enough said.

My best to you all.

- Bill


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