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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 3:15 pm 
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I agree Van, but I'm just trying to keep all the romans happy. These kind of bizzare responses to personal opinions just might be why so few members actually get off their ass and post an opinion. I mean why bother you just end up untying everyones knickers after.Who really wants to get involved in that.


I wasn't clear what you meant by this comment Laird. Are you saying that my response to your remarks about Dan Kumite were "bizzare"? And that because I suggested that Uechi people who practice and believe in pre-arranded drills might be offended, will keep other people from posting?

(I'm stating this, because that is how your words can be interpreted by readers. Its like saying, "man, if people can't insult Uechi people, why should they post! And remember, a perceived insult is just as bad as a real insult to the person on the receiving end) :)

The purpose of the VSD forum is to look at some of the ways we communicate on these forums and ways we can improve our choice of words in order to get a message across without "tying kickers in a knot!"

After so many years, I can get a sense when someone is trying to "pull my chain" and when they are simply hitting the "send" key without re-reading their posts and unintentionally saying things in hurtful way.

We can say things like "I can't understand why people are so thin-skinned" . . . but when the tables are turned and someone says something that pisses us off, then off course. . . it is different.

All I'm trying to do is make people aware of the "golden rule" as it applies to posts.

Let us know how you feel about this. GEM


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 10:47 pm 
Quote:
Why people post and don't post
This probably deserves a thread of its own. Just too many issues in this one, so I’ll leave this for another day.




Quote:
Are you saying that my response to your remarks about Dan Kumite were "bizarre"?
No George I was not. You constantly take any criticism of the k drills or any comment about the k drill threads as a personal attack. If I was to personally address you, the sentence would probably contain your name.

I was making a general comment that if I use any adjectives or negative comments about the sacred drills people get hijacked. In order to keep the peace I then end up deleting the comment or offering an apology that I think really isn’t deserved or required. Far better just to avoid discussing the issue, people are far too emotionally attached to these drills. If I said push ups ******, most people would probably either agree, or tell me why push ups don’t ******. This never happens with kumite, people just highjack the thread on some silly personal injury rant. I’m not sure why, this behavior is what I find Bizarre. Let me say this again “I’m not saying anything negative about Uechi, anything negative about you. I’m not saying anything negative about Uechi people; I’m not saying anything negative about your organization. I am saying something negative about prearranged drills. Uechi does not have the patent on this type of training. Other groups use this type of drill as well.

Quote:
And that because I suggested that Uechi people who practice and believe in pre-arranged drills might be offended, will keep other people from posting?
No George it’s not you personally. I was suggesting that if you can not challenge a tribal ritual with out the tribe rising up in righteous indignation there’s not much value in discussing anything with the tribe. If you don’t toe the party line everyone cries foul.

Quote:
I'm stating this, because that is how your words can be interpreted by readers.
Well it’s what you’re claiming at any rate, not sure I’d make the leap you have.


Quote:
It’s like saying, "man, if people can't insult Uechi people, why should they post! And remember, a perceived insult is just as bad as a real insult to the person on the receiving end
I’d suggest that this is a personal attack George, you appear to be saying that the only reason I post is to insult other people. This is not a perceived insult it is an insult. If that’s how you feel about things then you best just ban me from your forums. .


Quote:
After so many years, I can get a sense when someone is trying to "pull my chain" and when they are simply hitting the "send" key without re-reading their posts and unintentionally saying things in hurtful way.
One again, you claim I’m a troll George. Flush me and be done with it, I’m sick of your insinuations.


Quote:
All I'm trying to do is make people aware of the "golden rule" as it applies to posts.
Ahhhhhhhhh but which golden rule?

1. The one with the most gold rules?
2. The do on to others rule……?
3. Or the don’t diss the curriculum rule?


Quote:
Let us know how you feel about this. GEM
I think I just have. I thought it was water under the bridge. I now find my post cut up and spread through out the forum. I feel like those contractors who were cut apart and dragged about. I suspect I’ll be burned next.

I suffer the outrages of the language police, now I’m being muzzled by the thought police?


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 1:52 am 
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Why I don't post all the time
  • Some subjects I know nothing about. This is true on Van's forum, as I've never been in a fight in my adult life and otherwise have little to offer. On other stuff, I can hold my own.
  • I've been told to "get real" on occassions whenever I've posted by some forum moderators. If I thought my posts or responses would get fair treatment, and consideration on its merits, I might post more.
  • I don't post on certain forums and certain threads because those seem to have an agenda that I don't agree with.
  • Other forums just don't interest me.


Gene


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 11:51 am 
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Laird, you totally misread what I wrote and the point I was trying to get across.

You got "pissed" because of how you interpreted my comments. My words and intended meaning were quite clear to me when I wrote them and although intended to get a rise out of you (as they did), it was to show you how people were interpreting what you were saying, for whatever reason. (perceived insult)

In other words:

1. The vast majority of readers here are Uechi practitioners who believe in and practice Dan Kumite or a variation of this drill. This includes some pretty famous people like K. Shinjo, Gushi etc., etc..

2. I don't believe anyone would care if you said "I don't like dan kumite"! or even "I hate dan kumite", or even "I get sick to my stomach when I hear the words dan kumite".

3. But when you refer to dan kumite as "robot-ryu", you crossed the line. No one likes to be told they are studying "robot-ryu". The majority of people in Uechi-ryu will perceive this as an insult to the way they practice Uechi-ryu.

We've crossed this bridge before and you agreed a number of times to follow the rules, yet you continue to post comments you know violate these forums' rules.

I began these forums to exchange information and build good will within the Uechi community. I will not let them turn into a verbal slug fest where Uechi practioners' method of training are insulted. I don't care if this policy prevents anyone from being able to post in a certain favorite manner. Those are the rules and I will enforce them.

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GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject: Who is pissed?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 4:50 pm 
GEM I'm not pissed just disappointed. I point out how your words are also rude and insulting and you claim it's a device, just like your being the devils advocate etc. George, you know me by now it’s been a few years. You know I will rise to the occasion when folks choose to personally attack my reputation.

Quote:
Laird, you totally misread what I wrote and the point I was trying to get across



Quote:
My words and intended meaning were quite clear to me when I wrote them and although intended to get a rise out of you
You intended to have me respond to the insult George? I don’t think I’ve misread anything. My reading ability is fine sir. You take me to task for my words and then you deliberately bait me by insulting me. Where in the rules is this acceptable? You made a mistake branding a new forum member a troll. Mistakes happen ,we are all human. I suggest you give this more thought, I’m no troll. Just because we disagree on a training method does not make me the disruptive piece of crap you are trying to paint.


When I say Chevrolet *****, I'm not disusing the folks in the factory. I'm dissing the product. You’re choosing not to see the difference.

When I make negative comments about kumite you choose to claim I've offended the Uechi world. Damn it George, I'm part of the Uechi world too. Or at least I was until I realized I was headed in a different direction and no longer was a good fit for the organization. I've gone my own way it's for the best. I'm a minority in the system I have rejected kumite drills. I am following a different path.

I'm not dissing the people in Uechi; many of them are my personal friends. I'm not dissing the Uechi style, It's the style I train......I am Uechi too, it is my root, my base, a very special part of me that I'm proud of and found of. I love this style as much as most other practioners.I love showing this style to other martial arts practitioners.

Where are all of these offended Uechi people George? I’ve been posting on your forums for around 4 years, I’ve not heard from any of them. The only one I ever encounter is you. We frequently find our selves at odds over this.

It is my personal feeling that you some how equate my comments to a personal attack on you or your organization because you all train prearranged kumite. My comments were of a general nature. I did not specify Dan kumite, or any other kumite, once again, Uechi is not the only system that trains kumite drills.

Quote:
But when you refer to Dan kumite as "robot-ryu", you crossed the line
Once again I did not refer to Dan kumite as “robot-ryu”, you made that leap. If you chose to take me to task for my words,please ensure they are mine.


Quote:
yet you continue to post comments you know violate these forums' rules.
And the comment is what? Robot-Ryu? Hell man I use that term frequently to describe my own performance and my training partner’s performance, when it becomes to mechanical, ridge, unflowing in nature. This term is not offensive.


.
Quote:
I will not let them turn into a verbal slug fest where Uechi practitioners method off training are insulted.
I agree George, but I disagree anyone is being insulted. The only one making this claim is you, where are all these maligned Uechi folk?

Quote:
I hope he doesn't mind my discussing them here so that we might all learn something about the new art of "word conflict" as it pertains to posting.
If you real cared how I felt about it GEM you would have asked me, what your really doing is saying you don’t care if I like it or not, otherwise we would not be over hear.

If your purpose was to examine the words, so as to improve our posting; your posts would not be full of character assignations. You would not dredge up things from the past. This is not examining my post, this is a witch hunt. As far as I’m concerned this room is not about verbal anything it’s your own private flame war. I will no longer continue any discussions with you as I feel it is going no where. Judging by the pm’s I receive I’m not the only one who has taken a dim view of where you’re going with this thread.

George, I’m sure you can dissect my post and claim I’ve wronged you or insulted you or Uechi or something. I’m trying to tell you your wrong and you just keep coming back at me with all this insulting I’m Uechi stuff. This is not my intent nor has it ever been my intent. If it pleases you I’ll reframe from using the Term “robot –ryu” as you find it personally offensive.

I think we can disagree on the value of prearranged drills and yet still continue to respect each other, don’t you George ?


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 Post subject: My feeling
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 6:57 pm 
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about all this is quite simple. I've informed you and Van numerous times that I don't appreciate what is considered by many people, as insulting comments pertaining to Uechi-ryu as practiced by the majority of the Uechi world.

Whether these people, who no longer post and will not defend their position here, are whimps or simply individuals who don't feel they should have to read about how what they practice is inferior to what is being done in other styles or by street fighters or the UFC.

Although I know posters are not talking about me or IUKF specifically, I still don't feel like having to read such comments on a forum that was created to promote a friendly environment for exchanging training information and discussions about general areas of interest.

I created this site for a very selfish purpose. I would like to contribute to the discussions when I have time and would prefer not having to act like a sheriff protecting my home and friends who wish to drop in for a talk.

It should be enough for moderators and posters to know and honor my request in this area. Other than this rule, which I won't bend on, I've been very open and liberal in all other areas of discussion. I've given moderators great freedom and discretion in running their forums, but they are not above the rules.

I have and will continue to delete any offending comments that violate this rule. If posters continue to make offending comments, I will ban them from the site.

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GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject: Re: My feeling
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:23 pm 
gmattson wrote:
If posters continue to make offending comments, I will ban them from the site.
As well you should George.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 8:19 pm 
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Quote:
I've informed you and Van numerous times that I don't appreciate what is considered by many people, as insulting comments pertaining to Uechi-ryu as practiced by the majority of the Uechi world.

Whether these people, who no longer post and will not defend their position here, are whimps or simply individuals who don't feel they should have to read about how what they practice is inferior to what is being done in other styles or by street fighters or the UFC.


I don’t see it that way.


I don’t believe that the vast majority of Uechi practitioners feel insulted by our bringing to the forums universal critique by so many people the world over __ of methods of training. In fact, all of the people I have spoken to, thank us for “making them think about what they know” ~~

And you have seen the great number of posts, over the years, thanking us on my forum for making them think about what they know.



And__ If Uechi people felt insulted, they would post and rebut the points, which would be the wholesome thing to do. But I don’t see any doing this. __ Complaints about posting to a forum are usually directed to the moderator of the forum, I have never received any complaints. And if the forum were an insult to “our people” it would not have grown in popularity. Obviously, people like the topics that tweak their interest.

And __I don’t buy that “but for” __the __“insults” we would have more people posting. These phantoms were never part of our forums, never will be, and many are our detractors who will not “good will” us, no matter what we write.

And__ Finally, I wish to point out these important thoughts: Disagreements are common here, and have been known to make this board spicier and very popular.

a] Each forum has a particular focus and it is expected that there will be disagreements on many of the issues.

B] Arguments and disagreements are the bread and butter of discussion forums, provided they do not descend into exchanges of personal attacks and individual provocations. I don’t see any of that here.

C] Criticizing ideas and opinions is a normal process of debate and each person should expect to have ideas challenged.

D] One way to show the value of the beliefs of others is by discussing and arguing them. Even an attempt to refute another person’s beliefs shows more recognition of value.

I hope this puts this unfortunate matter to rest.
_________________

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Van


Last edited by Van Canna on Thu May 06, 2004 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 8:20 pm 
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I don't post:

- When I have no idea what everyone is talking about, which happens often on a board that is focused on a style I know next to nothing about.

-When I agree with everybody. Why bother?

-When I agree with nobody. It's just a cheerleading section that won't listen. Again, why bother?

-When I'm tired of saying the same things over and over. The regular readers know how I feel about everything that's important to me.

-WHEN IT'S A PERSONAL PISSING MATCH THAT LEAVES ME FEELING LIKE A VOYEUR JUST FOR READING IT. Both of you feel that you are in a rational, 'computer' mode and the other one is misinterpreting. From the outside, it reads like two angry men trying to very hard to be civil and snide at the same time.

I've got to tell you, I don't even know what Dan Kumite is, but this is what I'm hearing:

George: DK is a valuable piece of how we train.
Laird: It's unrealistic and will get people killed.

Reality check: all training is unrealistic to a degree, and anything could get somebody killed.

Unrealistic : In every system, there are pieces that don't stand alone. If someone does -just- Sinawalli, they will be conditioned to always hit the weapon and never the opponent, to work in predictable patterns, to ignore some more natural movements in order to maintain "flow" and will have no idea how to deal with either a point or staccato attack. It is, by itself, a collection of bad habits... but it is a valuable PIECE of how arnisadors train. I can point out something like this from every art.

Getting people killed: This is emotionally loaded. Whether the words are ever expressed that baldly, this is what is heard and felt when someone says "that's a bad technique" "that's a bad drill" or "your martial art is ineffective". All civility aside, that's how MARTIAL artists -define- 'bad' and 'ineffective'. When applied to someone with George's history and his obvious contributions, he will hear (on some level), "You are going to get your students kill and you won't change because you don't care."

(NOTE: I am well aware that I have no right to ascribe thoughts or deeper messages received to individuals whose skulls I can't access. Tough. I may be wrong, if I'm not you need to hear this.)

From that point, whether anybody wants it or not, it gets emotional. George respects Laird too much to say "Screw you. I DO care for my students and do the best I know how...and it's worked for hundreds if not thousands of people over the decades."

If it wasn't Laird or Van, people that George deeply respects (like the no-name trolls that come to the board every year or so) George wouldn't care and there would be no emotional content. He probably wouldn't reply at all.

But we all want the people we respect on board with our decisions, especially a decision about the welfare of our students.

It's possible to see preserving a drill you percieve as ineffective as making a conscious choice between the students safety and 'preserving the art'. That may be a part of the content here also.

FWIW,
Rory


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 Post subject: kiss and make up
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 3:04 am 
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Laird, please don't go.

GEM, with all respect: please share with us what it is you'd like done on these forums. If everyone reinforces each other's thoughts on the same recurring issues pertaining to Uechi Ryu, what's the value of open discussion forums? What would you like to see the conversations consist of?

As Laird mentioned, he is a Uechi practitioner. Ideally, communication between all levels and views offers deeper understanding for personal development; agreement a byproduct.

It may be underestimating forum readers' intelligence by assuming they'll allow one poster to define for them the substance of their practice. He can call it cotton candy, but it still feels like Don Kumite every time I do it.

There's a reason people study martial arts instead of yoga or tennis. The practice, born traditionally from people fighting to defend themselves in violent battles, draws people interested in some element of confrontation. We should expect all subsequent conversations and activities to be representative of this complex persona.


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 Post subject: Quite simple "X"
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:51 pm 
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Post in a positive manner, i.e. "This is what I do".

Do not post insulting comments, i.e. "Dan kumite is stupid".

We have endured 53 pages of interesting and mostly helpful discussions pertaining to why some people do not like Dan Kumite. How many more ways are there of saying it? The only time I objected, was in reference to some of the "tag" lines in the thread (and these were edited), where the poster made what I considered to be an insulting comment about Uechi practioners who didn't do Uechi the way the poster did his Uechi. After the edits, the thread did not suffer and the readers still very clearly understood how much the posters didn't like Uechi-ryu pre-arranged drills.

I don't believe such a rule deminishes a person's ability to communicate. Yes, some people would prefer if I allowed the use of profanity on the forums, because some people communicate better when they are allowed to cuss as they make a point. But with a little thought, they probably can compose a sentence without adding a F$#% to highlight and shock the readers!

There are lots of forums where insults are acceptable and actually encouraged. Aside from an occasional slip-up, we've been very fortunate in keeping the peace here.

Thank you for your concern and suggestions.

Rory: Nice post. You looking for a job as moderator here? :)

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GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 5:59 pm 
Quote:
Laird, please don't go.
Hi X! I have no intention of going away. The point I was making was my path is no longer main stream Uechi. I have no need to be part of an organization or an affiliation with a Honbu. I will still frequent the forums until GEM Sensei asks me not too.

I feel we have much to learn form one another. An oppourtunity I plan on exploring. George has put together an excellent forum for us all to interact.

Rory good post, we must appear a little silly at times. :roll:

George let's bury the hatchet on this one. You run a top notch forum, I'm glad it has not been allowed to degenerate into what many of the forums have become.


I will do my best to try and stop using the kind of adjectives that set people off. Some times my passion for my beliefs gets the best of my better judgement. If you feel I continue to to be a negative presence please just ask me to be on my way. It is not my intent to disrupt your forums.

In one way we are alike, you will not stand for what you see as insulting remarks........nor will I.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
The only time I objected, was in reference to some of the "tag" lines in the thread (and these were edited), where the poster made what I considered to be an insulting comment about Uechi practitioners who didn't do Uechi the way the poster did his Uechi. After the edits, the thread did not suffer and the readers still very clearly understood how much the posters didn't like Uechi-ryu pre-arranged drills.


Many people report that they have learned much, and made to think much about what they thought they knew.

Yeah, tag lines…oh well…look at every forum and you will find some. Write a torrent of words, as hard working contributors do, and the “tag” goes with the territory. Be honest with yourself George, and you will find your very own “tags” __ when “tagging” __ >modern combatives< __ >bouncers< __ and “your experts” >>

It’s par for the course, as the saying goes.

I also believe that the contributors have the right to free expression, unless they become outright insulting and profane, without fear of “big brother administrator” looking over their shoulders.

On these forums we have had the “Uechi police” __the “English language police” _ and the “thought police.”

One of the reasons why we don’t draw more contributors.

Quote:
Aside from an occasional slip-up, we've been very fortunate in keeping the peace here.


True. We have the best-behaved forums on the web. But you cannot stifle people’s passions, or you will have no forums left.

As it is, most of them are just taking up space.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 1:48 pm 
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Many years ago at a forum on international relations I attended in D.C., there was a heated (to say it mildly) debate on Iran and Iraq conflicts. Vehemence was expressed by all sides. Just as the chaos was about ot degenerate into real anger a small voice came out of the audience. We turned around and sitting in the back was a small gouteed professorial type, white haired, and wizened. In a measured tone he said as best as I can remember:

"May I offer my observation. The crescendo here is reaching levels
that may dwarf the actual conflicts. From the strategic perspective can not the conflict between Iran and Iraq really lie in just two letters 'n' and 'q'. ?"

Pause. The audience then burst into laughter and the tension dissapated, followed by a more civilized discussion.

In that vein, may I offer my wizend observation with respect to GEM's observation:
" Post in a positive manner, i.e. "This is what I do".
Do not post insulting comments, i.e. "Dan kumite is stupid". "

All this strum und drang about Dan Kumite. Would it help to getting rid of Dan and renaming "Frank or George or even Van" Kumite.

: )

These fora have been an outstanding contribution from GEM's philosophy articulated 43 years ago from the wellspring of his love of his students and Uechi Ryu. I believe I am among the many readers who are grateful for all sides The Good, The Bad, and The Really Baddddd (e.g. Van [GRIN]!!).

I hope all stay to make these readings exciting as well as informative. ( I would wish a Happy Mother's Day to all, but will not as there may be some sensitve PC (politically corrupt) soul who could misconstrue),

Best to my Uechi Brethren.


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 Post subject: How true Topos
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 7:20 pm 
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I missed this post and just read it while engaging in a discussion relating to Bill's post. Very interesting. . .

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GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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