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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:22 pm 
In the Straw Man thread of Van's forum, I had posted my support for Laird's view without insulting or calling anyone down. I simply stated that I applaud Laird for bringing the Straw Man comment out in the open and that I support his viewpoint.

When GEM threatened to delete posts and possibly ban certain individuals over this, I asked that this not be done as the parties involved could work this out and removing the priviledges of someone who adds so much to the forum would be a shame.

I wake up this morning and find out that several posts have been deleted along with my support for Laird.

I was fairly pissed as I did not flame, diss, insult or add fuel to the fire. I have opinions and in this case I supported Laird and got deleted for it.

If I had supported Bill, would I have been deleted as well? Probably not.

This now tells me that unless I support the folks who run these forums, my viewpoints with others mean nothing. This is the path that the forums have taken lately and adds to the resistance of people wanting to post their thoughts.

If I was deleted because I support Laird, then so be it. I stand by my opinion and will not back down. I question the fairness and neutral stance of the administrators if they do not allow both sides of a discussion (along with the support) to be viewed by all.

I enjoyed these forums in the past as they appeared to promote open, honest discussion and I have seen people be big enough to apologize for
insulting others. This is no longer the case as now we are simply deleting the posts of the individuals who feel insulted and call it and supporting or erasing the tracks of those who should be held accountable.

If I get banned for this, then fine. I have no control over someone hitting the delete key and I also realize they do not have to give an axplanation. That would be another cover-up but al least I have a record of what I said here so I can share it with the individuals who I respect.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 4:39 am 
The posts supporting Bill were not deleted.

Oddly mine remained. :?


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 Post subject: Please read
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 4:42 pm 
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my post on Van's forum.

I was half asleep and tempted to delete the whole thread. Instead I deleted all that I felt were in any way insulting to Bill.

I probably made a couple of mistakes by deleting some that should have stayed.

There is no question in my mind that Laird has repeatedly looked for opportunities to insult Bill for purely personal reasons.

Had Van said that GEM was using "strawman" arguments when discussing dan kumite, NO ONE would have said a word.

Bill writes a ton of posts on these forums. Anyone who writes so much, will on occasion say something that could be interpreted in more than one way.

Van writes posts on these forums that in my estimation, insults me and the 95% of our readers who practice what I call "Traditional" martial arts. When I say this, in what I consider to be a non-insulting manner and in a way that simply lets Van know how "we" feel, I get rewarded with all kinds of posts saying that I'm "paranoid", wear panties that get in a knot, "thin skinned", and on and on.

To me, this is a double standard.

_________________
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject: Re: Please read
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:10 pm 
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gmattson wrote:
my post on Van's forum.

I was half asleep and tempted to delete the whole thread. Instead I deleted all that I felt were in any way insulting to Bill.

I probably made a couple of mistakes by deleting some that should have stayed.

There is no question in my mind that Laird has repeatedly looked for opportunities to insult Bill for purely personal reasons.

Had Van said that GEM was using "strawman" arguments when discussing dan kumite, NO ONE would have said a word.

Bill writes a ton of posts on these forums. Anyone who writes so much, will on occasion say something that could be interpreted in more than one way.

Van writes posts on these forums that in my estimation, insults me and the 95% of our readers who practice what I call "Traditional" martial arts. When I say this, in what I consider to be a non-insulting manner and in a way that simply lets Van know how "we" feel, I get rewarded with all kinds of posts saying that I'm "paranoid", wear panties that get in a knot, "thin skinned", and on and on.

To me, this is a double standard.


Before this possibly turns into another flame war, I have a suggestion. George, why don't you create a poll regarding this double standard issue (though I think you should tone down the statement of it a little :D)? There are over 2000 registered members, why don't you give them an opportunity to voice their opinion, instead of having the same ten or so people going back and forth as usual?

Thanks,
John


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:39 pm 
Quote:
Van writes posts on these forums that in my estimation, insults me and the 95% of our readers who practice what I call "Traditional" martial arts. When I say this, in what I consider to be a non-insulting manner and in a way that simply lets Van know how "we" feel, I get rewarded with all kinds of posts saying that I'm "paranoid", wear panties that get in a knot, "thin skinned", and on and on.

To me, this is a double standard.


So this really is how Van`s being Labelled and persecuted for providing good intelligent , fact based discussion.

And you wonder why his friends get sick of it .

This is not insulting to Van after all the hard work he`s put in , the man who above all created this forum (yes you fund it but who`s post do folks come to read) .

I think my comments on the thread were mainly limited to the deja vu , and joking to how it would be handled , oh and a cool picture of a strawman . A peice of americana from the wizard of oz ....


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 Post subject: John..
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 6:36 pm 
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How would you like to moderate this forum?

It is a thankless job, but a very important one to this website. You sound like someone who is objective and fair and not afraid to tell any of us when we need to edit or delete a post.

What say????

_________________
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 7:15 pm 
Well I think that Laird is a pretty regular contributor to these forums, and I agree that he has possibly overstepped the mark ...but as he mainly posts on Van's and Rick's forum, and gets quite involved in the discussions there, it seeme to me that Van and Rick are getting punished as well......which seems a little unfair, I believe that Laird considers Rick his Sensei and regularly goes to him for advice and instruction..............Now we have all admitted ( Bill especially so ) that this is a very difficult media to communicate on.....and I think that a lot of this is down to misunderstanding and bad communications..................it would be nice if there could be some kind of compromise :wink:


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 Post subject: Jorvik
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 7:29 pm 
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I actually miss Laird too.
=============================

Lets all try to follow the

Uechi-ryu Principles of Conduct!
Remain courteous at all times.

Keep in mind that truth is relative, depending on perspective.

Maintain an open mind.

Choose words carefully. Regrets should be offered when warranted.

Do not belittle anyone for any reason.

Keep the line of discussion within the general scope of the Forum's "mission statement".

Do not criticize another style/art.

When disagreeing with an issue, substantiate the disagreement with scholarly evidence or information based on rational reasoning based on personal experience.

When expressing an opinion, offer information in support of that opinion.

Members will make all efforts to keep this forum "flame-proof".

If you would like to have a personal discussion, please do so without posting it to the group.

When an individual feels offended, send a message back to the offender only. Maintain courtesy. It may have been just a misunderstanding.

When anyone detects that a posting may have been offensive, send a message to the poster. The person may not have realized that the post was offensive.

Be courteous.

Violators of the Principles of Conduct may be given a warning from the site owner. If the problem cannot be resolved, the violator may be expelled from the individual forum and/or Banned.

George Mattson


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 Post subject: Stryke...
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 7:44 pm 
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A perfect example of a "strawman" argument:

I say:
Quote:
Van writes posts on these forums that in my estimation, insults me and the 95% of our readers who practice what I call "Traditional" martial arts. When I say this, in what I consider to be a non-insulting manner and in a way that simply lets Van know how "we" feel, I get rewarded with all kinds of posts saying that I'm "paranoid", wear panties that get in a knot, "thin skinned", and on and on.

To me, this is a double standard.


Which to me simply states that some of Van's post seem to target TMA in a negative manner. I stated an opinion. . . something we have all done!

To which you respond:

Quote:
So this really is how Van`s being Labelled and persecuted for providing good intelligent , fact based discussion.

And you wonder why his friends get sick of it .

This is not insulting to Van after all the hard work he`s put in , the man who above all created this forum (yes you fund it but who`s post do folks come to read) .


Which does not address my statement at all. You made up a completely new and unrelated explanation for my comment, to which you added your completely off-base reason for my stating it. Now that is a real "strawman" argument! :)


Last edited by gmattson on Sun May 01, 2005 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 7:45 pm 
GEM,
I totally agree with those principles........but I hate to say it, I've probably broken most of them at one time or another :oops: :oops: .........what do they say "To Err is human..to forgive is divine"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 7:50 pm 
I do not think there should be a double standard for anyone.

If I step over the line or Van or Laird or Bill then we all should be called on it.

I think I probably have gotten away with stuff on Van’s forum in the past that maybe I should not have. Perhaps it was because I was on the same page as Van’s and it was making a point. And sometimes Van just likes to let people slug it out on the forum floor. Was it a double standard?

But I have pointed out (posting openly) numerous times Bill’s insults and condescending approach to people. I have pointed out numerous times where he insults the person or the school (often mine and once even dredging up something he saw ten years ago) and all that is said is that Bill writes a lot and doesn’t know what he is saying. HUH?

I have said this before and I will say it again: Bill IS an intelligent person and he KNOWS exactly what he is posting. When he insults me he intends to and that’s fine but I will call him on it each and every time.

He tries to ride a line he thinks he will get away with. Sometimes he does and sometimes he crosses it.

Do we always stay on that line?

Do I always stay on that line?

No.

And if people feel I have crossed it then they can speak up and say so.

I have posted apologises when I have inappropriately crossed the line previously and I have restated my positions at other times when I felt they were appropriate.

George why when Bill is called on his insults do you always want everything deleted?

I think everything should stay where it is so that people can see the past history of posters and determine if this time it is just an innocent misstep or just same old same old.


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 Post subject: Rick
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:11 pm 
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Quote:
George why when Bill is called on his insults do you always want everything deleted?

I think everything should stay where it is so that people can see the past history of posters and determine if this time it is just an innocent misstep or just same old same old.


Honestly Rick, I don't have a method in mind. It just seems that Bill's detractors go overboard when they perceive that Bill has insulted them. Instead of simply posting a statement to Bill, stating why they find the post "insulting", they immediately go into "attack" mode, posting multiple and obvious insulting images and comments addressed to or at Bill.

If they had simply PM'd Bill or stated their objection in a post, Bill would have made every effort to explain and/or edit his posts.

He can be a pompous ass at times. . . He admits it. Without this human frailty, his forum wouldn't be half as interesting.

I feel that I made the right decisions for the right reasons.

And I will continue to do so.

_________________
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject: Re: John..
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:51 pm 
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gmattson wrote:
How would you like to moderate this forum?

It is a thankless job, but a very important one to this website. You sound like someone who is objective and fair and not afraid to tell any of us when we need to edit or delete a post.

What say????


George, thanks a lot for the compliment! I need to think about it a little. I'll send you an email.

John


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 9:08 pm 
First:

“I feel that I made the right decisions for the right reasons.

And I will continue to do so.”

Yes, this is your house and you can certainly run it as you see fit.

We all have the option of walking away should we choose to.

Or we can choose to hang out with other Uechi folk and MA people and may be make the community stronger.

Diversity does make the community stronger but if the diverse people walk away from these forums then you aren’t left with much to generate interest.

Second:

Although I did not get a chance to see it I understand the post on Bill’s forum questioning this was “less pointed.” The deletion generated some heat. Now that’s Bill’s forum and it is his to moderate as he sees fit but – slap a guy in the face don’t be surprised when he drops you.

Should insulting pictures be deleted? In my opinion -- yes. While I am not for deletion I have asked pictures be changed for less offensive ones on my forum.

However, the rules say no personal insults and when we cross that line then why shouldn’t we call people on it publicly.

Third:

You say Bill, and these are your words not mine, “can be a pompous ass at times.”

Okay, well Laird can be an upfront, say it as he sees it, in your face guy, who can be far more blunt than most people can handle. Laird will readily admit to this character flaw as well as Bill does his.

Does the pompous ass get to act that way because that is how he is, but the overly blunt guy not?

Is this then not a double standard?

(Again for those reading it the pompous ass comment was George’s and not mine.)

Hey we all tend to excuse behaviours of our friends more than others, but that is how double standards are created.

When you say, hey that’s just how Bill is, then….. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 10:34 pm 
Quote:
I came very close to banning quite a few other people, but thought it best to wait until after the tournament, when I was functioning closer to 100%.


GEM, is the consideration for more banning still being entertained by you?

Has Laird been banned for his opinions?

Who else has been handed disciplinary actions?

I am not trying to be difficult but simply want to understand the full outcome of this as this strings of events has damaged my perception of these forums.

I am seriously considering no longer posting over this since I was deleted for supporting someone in a non-abusive or insulting way. If the people I respect have been banned, then the decision on my part becomes quite simple as I cannot continue to only have an opinion and be heard by those who feel it aligns with their thought process.

I look forward to your response.


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