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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2000 7:12 pm 
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I doubt if anyone will argue that martial artist should fight rather than walk, providing the option exists. In my mind, the martial arts seem to 'kick in' at the point where physical violence is unavoidable.

Where our training breaks down, is during a potential window of opportunity, where the principles are talking/yelling at one another. Although a fight may seem inevitable to the typical martial artist, Suzette rightfully points out that we have other options. In order to exercise these options, we should spend some time studying VSD. By practicing VSD along with the physical MA backup, we provide ourselves with the best opportunity to extradite ourselves from danger, without having to use our physical martial arts.

To some, this may appear to be the sissies way out. To others, VSD is a viable and honorable addition to our physical training.

In another thread, we are discussing legal options and liabilities surrounding our decisions to defend ourselves. I don't think anyone has tackled the complex subject of how lawyers and insurance investigators interview the participants, trying to figure out at what point no options were present. . . when a fight was the only alternative. Then, of course, the questions would focus on who started the fight, who threw the first blow etc.

Now that we have a basic understanding of VSD, a whole new area of liability becomes apparent. In a way, not knowing VSD becomes a crutch for justifying early escalation of the physical part of the encounter. If it is discovered that I was trained in VSD, would I be held to a higher standard than my nonVSD opponent?

Should everyone be judged using the VSD formula?

I hope others see VSD as a another spoke in the martial arts wheel.

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GEM


[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited May 18, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2000 3:17 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
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Location: Studio City, CA
"...The second reason was for information about handling the "interview" part of confrontations. For me that means information about (a) defusing the confrontation while it's still verbal, so that it doesn't escalate to physical conflict; (b) doing so without sacrificing honor or principles; and (c) doing so without causing loss of face on either side of the confrontation..."
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That's absolutely correct, and we wait expectantly, since most of your posts have dealt with other issues
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"..I am aware that many martial artists may not agree with me about that third part; this is because they disagree with me about the definition of the verb "win." I can only say that there is a venerable tradition in most of the physical martial arts to the effect that the greatest victory is to avoid a battle honorably.."

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Indeed there is, now could we get on with it ,please?
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"..I have tried to provide the necessary information; I've worked very hard at that. I am now convinced that the students who've said it can't be done adequately unless the people participating have taken the time to read one of my books (or attend a seminar, if that had been possible) are correct..."

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I hope you're mistaken in that, While I've read 2 of your books, I think any of us could learn from you provided we keep an open mind and you stick to the subject.

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"..In some ways the situation reminds me constantly of my experience with medical seminars. Most of my seminars are for doctors; typically, the seminar includes three to seven hundred doctors (mostly male)...
the current situation is much like that one. I'm trying to function within a culture that is largely male, highly "macho," very aggressive, and focused on winning. The fact that I am a woman, and that I'm not certified in a physical martial art, doesn't help..."
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No, it's the fact that you don't know our history. We are no more "macho" ( clearly a pejorative in the context of your statement) for studying the MA's than you are "butch" for getting a Phd, rather than staying home and baking cookies..

May I respectfully suggest you type "No Holds Barred" or Search "Ultimate Fighting Championship" on the web for a truly Neanderthal experience?

You see, the fact is that this is a forum for dinasours. Sadly, Karateka put $ above their principles when kickboxing became a sport in the early 1970's. Prior to that it was UNTHINKABLE that a Karateka would use his art other than in self defense , when all other options had failed. Let boxers entertain the bloodthirsty mob; but not us!

Suffice it to say, most MA arts, publications and forums have gone downhill in the humanity meter. I am not an Uechi-Ryu stylist myself, but I appreciate this forum because it does remind me of the 'good old days'

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.. whether what I'm trying to teach has any relevance or value for physical martial artists. As a result, I have to spend much of the limited time I have available for the forum engaged in trying to counter that dubiousness. That holds me back; it leaves me very little time or space for actually teaching verbal self-defense."
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Righto! Let's get on with it, please.
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My greatest challenge in teaching VSD is almost always convincing the person facing attacks to _try_, just once. Let's consider women who are battered by their spouses/partners, as an example. Their attitude toward what I tell them is overwhelmingly and unanimously "That would never work. Not with _my_ husband!" When I'm able to convince them to try, just once, I get phone calls and letters, usually very joyful phone calls and letters, saying that to their utter astonishment it _worked... they are never victims in precisely the same way again..."
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Are you serious? BATTERED WOMEN? If you mean verbally abused I could understand your statement. BATTERED, at least for most of us who speak English, means physically beaten, as in a trip to the hospital or-eventually--worse, Could you please define your terms?

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"I am also reminded of the law enforcement seminars that I've taught. I was shocked the first time an LE professional said to me, "Look, I don't care whether your VSD stuff works or not. I wouldn't _want_ it to work. You'd be taking all the FUN out of this job!" ---------------------------------------------
What an idiot. Can't think of a single LEO I've met who'd want him as a partner. He's probably hanging around one of those NHB forums...

Now about defusing violence...?



[This message has been edited by Ringo (edited May 18, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2000 4:34 am 
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Suzette,

I am taken somewhat aback by your perception of our concerns on this page.

The message is clearly that we seek to defuse and avoid an ugly and costly street confrontation by any means, at times even if it cannot be done honorably for the sake of avoiding some very serious repercussions!

Your painting such a picture of contributors to your page will not be taken lightly by most, as it is truly grossly mischaracterized. Ringo is correct in his comments!

What we had hoped for was a set of tools that would work in all stages of confrontations, that would survive the ultimate adrenal response and fear/ survival/ freeze mechanism!

Additionally, we were looking forward to some method of practicing that set of tools under realistic scenarios of extreme adrenaline dump where physical survival is at stake.

Perhaps we are missing something here, but I can certainly sympathize with Ringo’s frustrations!

Can you show us how to “hold together” verbally __ under impending, potentially deadly violence?


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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2000 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 69
Location: Huntsville, Arkansas, USA
I am sincerely sorry for offending those posting on this forum. Please accept my apologies.

I have just two comments.

First, that I don't consider the word "macho" to be a pejorative, nor did I use it with the intention of saying anything negative about this group. I'll avoid its use in future, but was unaware that it was insulting. Since the only useful meaning of any utterance is what the listener understands it to mean, my ignorance in no way excuses me -- but I do want you to know that no insult was intended.

As for getting on with it, I've been trying. When I get back, I'll see what I can do.

Suzette


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2000 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 69
Location: Huntsville, Arkansas, USA
This thread is getting so large that too much time has to be spent just loading the thing...

Let's shut it down and start fresh. I'm not shutting down the discussion, just this thread.

Moving right along....

Suzette


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