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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2000 2:44 pm 
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Original post by BILLY B
posted July 18, 2000 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have been following the threads on the "hockey fight" trajedy. Thoughts expressed there have churned up some thoughts of my own. I would like to relate an experience I had a few years back that troubled me at the time and has troubled me ever since. I hope folks can help me figure this out.
I am sitting next to my girl on the beach, facing the ocean. There is a large and very steep hill directly behind us which is the only way in or off the beach. You need to climb this hill to get to the parking lot, jiffy-johns, and beers.

A group of about 8-9 guys in their early to mid twenties secures the spot next to ours. They are loud, obnoxious, drinking heavily, etc. They look pretty tough. One guy has a nice shiner. (I'm thinking "Gee I wonder why?)

After about fifteen minutes of banter between each other, the guy with the shiner turns and makes a remark about my girl. (I'm thinking "Oh s*h*i*t, its happening!") I turn towards him with a hard look. He does not make eye contact, just stares ahead with a smirk on his face. Others in the group do attempt to make eye contact with me, but I just stare at the guy with the black eye for a moment and then turn away. At this point my girl says to me "Was he talking about me?" I say "No way, he's just a f'ing loudmouth. Why do you suppose he has a shiner?" I say this loud enough for him to hear it. Now I'm getting really scared, wondering how far this will go and if I can control it or stop the esculation.

Theres no way I am going to fight eight guys on this beach alone with zero chance of emergency medical care or law enforcement showing up in time. Thats really the whole incident since I basicly went in to avoidance mode, and nothing else was said by anyone.

However, the pyschological ramifications did not end there. I can tell you I did NOT enjoy the rest of the time on the beach that day. I have often thought of this incident and been troubled since then. I think folks who read and write hear understand why.

1)Did my girl think I was a wimp for not sticking up for her more forcefully? (she hates violence, but I don't know if she understands how quickly this could have esculated into a "self-defense" situation)
2)Could I have used "better" verbal/physical tactics to resolve this situation?
3)Why did I become so enraged when I understand this kind of youthfull stupidity fairly well?

In a sense, I know what I did was right. But it FELT WRONG. That day I contemplated walking right up on the guy and telling him if he wants to insult my girl we could always take a walk up the hill together and discuss things without his 7 or eight buddies around. Later,(like, this week!) I have considered that I could have just waited for him to need to use the jiffy john and then follow him over the hill to confront him. Ok, ok, I'll also admitt I fantisized about ambushing him physicaly, knocking him unconscious and stuffing his head into the jiffy john. This is so stupid, especialy considering what happened to Mr. Costin, I know.

So how could I have skillfully avoided a physical confrontation, and also saved myself and possibly my girl the mental anguish that followed this incident? (You know I still have'nt asked my girl about the incident at all. I guess I tried to sweep it under the rug.) I should talk to her.

Help? Thoughts? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Original post by Kevin Mackie
posted July 18, 2000 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>BillyB, it seems that that encounter is only too familiar with boys or men and beer.
to address the questions, (1)if your girl thinks you a wimp for picking up and moving or leaving when faced with 8 drunken fools, then she cares more about appearances than your safety. i hope this is not the case. If so.....you have not found the girl for you.

(2) a better response would have been silence. all it would have taken was to anger one and then a group mentality would have taken over and you would be food for the crabs.

(3) as i've said before, get a copy of "pulling your own strings" by wayne dwyer. or goleman's "emotional intelligence". these guys can explain your feelings and help you understand when and why to control them.

my number one piece of advise is try not to give a rat's ass what strangers think of you. You have no stake in creating or maintaining a relatioship with them.

drunks and fools will act as such and your actions won't change that fact.

Kevin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



original post by Panther
posted July 18, 2000 11:48 AM


quote:
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Originally posted by BILLY B:
However, the pyschological ramifications did not end there. I can tell you I did NOT enjoy the rest of the time on the beach that day. I have often thought of this incident and been troubled since then. I think folks who read and write hear understand why.


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You didn't enjoy the rest of your time on the beach that day because you had correctly jumped from Condition Yellow to Condition Orange preventing further relaxation AND because you allowed someone else to dictate your mental and emotional state. The first one is an acceptable response, the second... well... don't let that happen. I mention these two because they seem indicated by your telling of the situation.


quote:
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1)Did my girl think I was a wimp for not sticking up for her more forcefully? (she hates violence, but I don't know if she understands how quickly this could have esculated into a "self-defense" situation)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've said it in other threads, I'll say it again... IF your girlfriend/wife/date thinks you're a "wimp" rather than a prudent survivor/protector, then you need to seriously reevaluate that relationship.


quote:
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2)Could I have used "better" verbal/physical tactics to resolve this situation?
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The situation is over... don't dwell on it... if it ever happens again (hopefully/probably not), it won't occur exactly the same way anyways. If you just want to do a "technical" post-mortem of the event, that's one thing, but it does seem like it's really bothering you... don't let it.

Having said that, what "better" way to handle the situation? Could you have just moved to a different beach area? Perhaps just ignored the punk... but that was removed as an option the minute your girlfriend asked if he was talking about her, so at that point you needed to say something. By making a statement that left an "out" and also allowed both you and the punk to "save face" by separating the punks comments from your girlfriend, you did well to diffuse the situation. Even if it was directed at her, she needs to also learn to not let others dictate her self-worth.


quote:
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3)Why did I become so enraged when I understand this kind of youthfull stupidity fairly well?
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Because you allowed someone to "push your buttons"...


quote:
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In a sense, I know what I did was right. But it FELT WRONG.
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Woah! Stop right there! You are confusing feelings for two different reasons as being for the same reason.

You know it was right because 1) you were out numbered, 2) it wasn't worth you or your girlfriend getting hurt over it, 3) your actions, while looking cowardly perhaps, in actuality helped to protect you and your girlfriend's well-being... That's the first feeling and it's reasons.

On the other hand, you feel it was wrong because, 1) your girlfriend's "honor" was insulted, 2) as her "protector", you feel duty-bound to uphold her honor, 3) by insulting your girlfriend, you were also insulted... and for those reasons you feel wrong in not "defending your/her honor"... that's the distinctly separate reason for your second feeling.

The first feeling is a rational, realistic response... while the second is the emotional response. They (obviously) don't always agree. Fortunately for you, what you actually did was the correct choice.


quote:
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That day I contemplated walking right up on the guy and telling him if he wants to insult my girl we could always take a walk up the hill together and discuss things without his 7 or eight buddies around. Later,(like, this week!) I have considered that I could have just waited for him to need to use the jiffy john and then follow him over the hill to confront him. Ok, ok, I'll also admitt I fantisized about ambushing him physicaly, knocking him unconscious and stuffing his head into the jiffy john. This is so stupid, especialy considering what happened to Mr. Costin, I know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's forget the tragedy of Junta/Costin for a second and just focus on the "what ifs", the pros/cons of the scenerios you just contemplated...

What would you gain by calling him out?

What would you gain by following him until he was alone?

What would you gain by "ambushing" him?

Nothing! NOTHING! NOTHING! Are you trying to make him pay for being a jerk and saying something mean? What's that gain you? NOTHING!...

What would you jeopardize in all three instances?

Not just your safety, but the safety of your girlfriend!!! Think about that for a minute... You call him out to go back up the hill. Either his buddies follow or they don't... either your girlfriend follows or she doesn't... One way or another, your girlfriend is going to be unguarded with seven unknown men. WHAT!?!?! That's no good!

Say you just follow him to the john... same thing! She's left unguarded with seven unknown men. Bzzzzt! Wrong again...

OK, you "ambush" him... yeah... and where is your girlfriend during this? Where are those seven unknowns? Nope... bad move... You get the idea...

Would it be worth it?

Really?

I'll use the amazing Karnak envelope and tell you the future after making the incorrect choice...

Our top story: Woman brutally gang-raped and beaten is listed in stable condition tonight after an assault at a local beach. Authorities say she was found by a family who spotted a group of approximately 8 males fleeing the scene. Police are guarding an unconcious man who is also hospitalized, but hasn't regained conciousness. Authorities are uncertain if he was a companion of the unidentified woman, who also remains unconcious, or was one of the attackers who the woman successfully incapacitated. She is expected to recover, (yeah, riiiight... ever talked with a rape survivor? Think they really "recover"?) but doctors are uncertain if the man's injuries are survivable.


quote:
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So how could I have skillfully avoided a physical confrontation, and also saved myself and possibly my girl the mental anguish that followed this incident? (You know I still have'nt asked my girl about the incident at all. I guess I tried to sweep it under the rug.) I should talk to her.
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First, it sounds like you did avoid a physical confrontation... unless there's more to it than you wrote. Second, if you haven't talked with her, how do you know she has any mental anguish over the incident? Maybe she's over it already... Third, don't "sweep it under the rug", but certainly don't dwell on it either... definitely talk with her about it. Explain the problems of disparate forces (7-8 vs. 1) if it had gotten out of hand, and the fact that her "honor" was best served by making certain she remained safe rather than care about someone else's uninformed, crass, low-class opinions.


quote:
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Help? Thoughts?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There you have it... You should never, ever, EVER have to explain "backing down" to someone that you're supposedly "close to". If you do, perhaps you need to communicate more OR reassess just how "close" you really are.

Given the nature of relationships, I suggest communication.


[This message has been edited by Panther (edited July 18, 2000).][/quote]

original post by Brat
posted July 18, 2000 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Billy B.
As the others, I too agree that you did the right thing. I also think that your confronting the big guy as you did with your response was a good move. These guys were obviously not wanting to fight(nobody wants to fight anyone who hints at giving them even a modest amount of reststance)and had you ignored the comment it could have signaled to them that you were a whimp and easy pickings.
I think that you acted very honrably nontheless. I am always apprehensive about such situations when my wife is with me. I had a similar occurence on a lakefront beach about a year ago. Two guys made a few comments about my wife who is very attractive. I didn't respond but just ignored them without hinting that I was even the slightest bit nerved.
Hey I could have kicked the sh#% out of both of them combined, but my wife doesn't possess my fighting skill and if I were to engage in such behavior and she were to get hurt-it would be reckless behavior on my part. Its like fighting in a NHB event and having your wife/girlfriend hancuffed to you-a liability.
Sometimes these confrontations are unavoidable. But in my experience there are actually very few genuine tough guys walking around out there and most people even in a group are aprehensive about mixing it up. My Judo instructor always talked about dealing with multiple opponents. He would always say that you could avoid fighting the whole lot and diffuse the situation before it escalates into you getting dogpiled. If you are dealinhg with a bunch of white guys-always take out the biggest one first. That will usually take the wind out of the rest of the group as white caucasian culture males usually evaluate their own effectivness based on larger poeople.
If you are dealing with a group of black/African Americans, go for the one who is doing all the talking and it will most likely be one of the smaller guys in the group as their culture identifies attitude as the masculine factor.
Brat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Original post by RA Miller
posted July 18, 2000 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Billy-
Sorry you're getting AAR'ed to death.

YOU WALKED AWAY! Everything else is B*******!

("But did I walk away an alpha?" the inner monkey whines.)

YOU WALKED AWAY!

We are hardwired to dominance games. When someone starts the dance and we don't play we are _hardwired_ to doubt ourselves. 15,000,000 years ago it meant sex or no sex.

YOU WALKED AWAY!

Want to feel better? Outnumbered eight to one, secluded beach and a lone female...and they didn't want to push it. You definitely sent the right message.

Congratulations.

Rory<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Original post by paul giella
Moderator posted July 19, 2000 07:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
BillyB, you have my full empathy and even sympathy. Only a saint or some kind of zen master could have been left unperturbed by the situation you described. You did the right thing, and that is a valuable and important thing to remind yourself. Too bad a nice day at the beach had to be spoiled... one reflects with some sadness on the artlessness of callow youth...


Original post by Van Canna
Moderator posted July 19, 2000 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Billy,
I really feel for you. All the advice you get from the good people here, [great advice BTW] seems to resonate echoes in the walls of your mind in the post mortem of the event which will pervade your subconscious forever!

You may recall a similar situation I investigated at a nightclub, which I posted on my forum.

Husband and wife, walking out, punks taking liberties with the wife, delayed rage rush by the husband, security guard responding and getting killed by the punks, husband and wife criminally charged, and sued by the estate of the decedent, husband and wife getting a divorce, when wife blamed husband for the killing of the guard, husband stating to me that had he not reacted to the offense to his wife, he would have not felt like a real man, and that she would have thought of him as a wimp and probably divorced him anyway!

Do you see how complex we are?

The husband” You lie awake nights in the aftermath and fantasize the enraged dismemberment of your adversary limb by limb. You lie next to your wife
And both of you stare at the ceiling, you touch her but your bodies are in emotional death! “


------------------
Van Canna<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Original post by Len Testa
Moderator posted July 19, 2000 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Billy B-san
Congratulations...You have passed a test that most Martial Artist fail at miserably.

It is in the back of most our minds to justify the hard earned dollars that we spend to learn self-defense tactics. There is no better test than a few (in your case too many) punks provoking a confrontation over a woman companion/date/girlfriend.

Unless they initiate an attack, which they did not, you did the right thing.

I could go on but every post above already said what I would have said.

Maybe your feelings were hurt, they are alot easier to heal than broken bones.

Kudos to you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Original post by BILLY B
posted July 20, 2000 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hi guys,
I want to thank everyone for the awesome responses! You guys are a tremendous resource for me!

Van-Sensei,

Maybe now I am begining to understand your references to the "confidence" factor. I could have been killed! (After I dumped that loudmouth with the shiner, of course.- still holding on to my violent fantasy...) No easy answers for the psycology of the relationship, eh? I think Rory pegged it right on the nose with his comment about evolution and hardwiring.

And Panther, you're right about communication! But how the hell DO you communicate with a woman anyways! One thing you guys are wrong about though... I am with the right girl, just have to try to figure this issue out...

One final thought.... I was able to tell this story honestly only because I go by a "handle". And even though folks don't know who I am I found myself embellishing the story as I typed it!! (I stopped and corrected things...) If I were using my full name, I know I would not have been able to share this story with you guys out of embarrassment, or whatever. Also friends, I could not bring myself to type the actual insult that was uttered and I still can NOT type it!(Even though my "mission" here was to portray things as they actually went down) But, do you think I can forget those words?
Do you think I will ever forget that guy's face?

Thanks again for the great advice, and for easing my mind a bit!

ps: Sure would be nice to have a woman martial artist's perspective on this issue!

------------------
"There ain't no graduation from this kind of education"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
Len Testa

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited July 20, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2000 3:15 pm 
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Billy B-san,

I never said that you were with the wrong woman... Don't misunderstand the point...

the point was that if a wife/girlfriend/fiance'/date does not understand the necessity of "backing down" in a situation such as you described, then there are only two possibilities:

1) You need to communicate (which is what I suggested) the gravity of the situation. (And make no mistake about it *** ... these situations are of the gravest extreme to coin Mas Ayoob)

2) If the wife/girlfriend/date still can not understand why you didn't "defend her honour", then it's time to get a different wife/girlfriend/date! (I didn't suggest that this was your case, merely pointed out this as one of the possibilities that has befallen many men I know)

Also, for the record, I don't intend to insult any of the women on these forums. Just as all men aren't bad, so aren't all women... I was only pointing out that this does happen sometimes.


*** When you're laying in a hospital bed contemplating a long recuperation and the head nurse comes somberly in with a piece of paper and a pen... and asks you if you'd like to write a letter for any loved ones "just in case"...

believe me, you will understand the gravity of the situation then!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2000 4:04 pm 
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Calling all women practitioners!

What comments can you add about Billy B's situation?

Do you believe that her honor should have been upheld with violence?

------------------
Len Testa


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2000 6:17 am 
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<B>Billy of B:</B>

You should have agreed to disagree.

[Stop that!--Ed.]

I have enjoyed reading this thread on Uncle Van's forum, and I think it is a good place to start considering the proper use of language for defense.

Welcome Len, thanks for the jacuzzi.

First, I agree with what people have said. You won. That is it. You had EIGHT guys and you were basically on your own.

Second, I agree with Panther--even if he does not accept the wonderful program of urban renewal initiated by Gen. Sherman--in the open-ended recommendation that friends and loved ones should not "challenge" you. Returning to this situation, if this bothers you, it bothers you and you need to talk to someone about it because. . . .

Third, emotions are illogical. I wrote the "Get a Life" thread on Don Van's because of the anger and frustration I felt dealing with an idiot. Why? Why waste my time, blah blah blah? I did because I felt that way. Emotions are hard to control. Rationally, you know you won. Emotionally, it is hard to "feel" like a winner.

Yet, part of the discipline is learning to accept and control emotions. [We must curtail his "Star Trek" priveledges.--Ed.] Someone cuts us off. We feel rage. Why? Well, we do.

I had a conversation with a few Seniors and S-S. I stated that I thought the purpose of language as defense is: you accidentally bump/look at someone in a bar. He has had a horrible day/is drunk/is stupid and he welcomes you "volunteering" to serve as a whipping post for HIS anger.

What do you say/do to diffuse the situation? Good question.

I do not recommend, "agreeing to disagree."

--J.D.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2000 12:29 pm 
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You are most welcome to come back and visit anytime JD

Chinese food, Rolling Rocks, and Jacuzzi
after a TC...

Is there anything better?

------------------
Len Testa


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2000 2:22 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LenTesta:

Chinese food, Rolling Rocks, and Jacuzzi
after a TC...

Is there anything better?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmm... Not having taken one of these legendary TC classes, but feeling an emotional requirement to respond...

Yes, there's something better! Japanese food, Sake', Jacuzzi!

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2000 4:17 pm 
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quote:
____________________________________________
Originally posted by LenTesta:
Chinese food, Rolling Rocks, and Jacuzzi
after a TC...

Is there anything better?
____________________________________________

I can think of something better. Chinese food with some Italian, a nice cool drink, a jacuzzi, and a professional massage after a day at DisneyWorld and an optional TC. That! is a good day. Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2000 4:51 pm 
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King of Darkness:

Welcome to the VSD Forums. Thanks for your comments and participation !

King and Panther
It seems that the "jacuzzi" is the similar subject here.

It is duly noted that there is nothing better after a TC class than...

A. a cool drink (your choice)
B. food (again your choice)
C. good friends or new friends {JD Image} in a jacuzzi

throw in a massage from your favorite expert and now could anything be better?




------------------
Len Testa


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2000 6:38 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LenTesta:

It seems that the "jacuzzi" is the similar subject here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmmmm.... yes it is... Interesting that time in a jacuzzi is being brought up. Home Cheapo just had a huge sale on their Jucuzzi (brand) Hottubs a few weeks back. ~50% off! We were in the process of putting a new deck on the back of the homestead and... ahem, was able to convince the wifey that a little "redesign" would allow for incorporating one of these right in! Been spending lots of evenings after workouts going home, quick shower, into the jacuzzi! That's the life! Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is duly noted that there is nothing better after a TC class than...

A. a cool drink (your choice)
B. food (again your choice)
C. good friends or new friends {JD Image} in a jacuzzi

throw in a massage from your favorite expert and now could anything be better?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaaaahhhh, a massage... Nice, shiatsu message preferably! Image

Didn't someone mention on one of these forums/threads that there is a Uechi-ka who is noted in the massage area? Wait, I remember... JD said something about going up to Khoury-sempai's dojo and mentioned someone...

Fill us in! Inquiring minds want to know!

Gotta get the full effect and make this the best! Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2000 6:41 pm 
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Interesting thread. I'm glad you shared this experience with us because we then get to all grow from it.

What I find interesting in this discussion forum is applying what is learned in the dojo in a verbal format. It's always a difficult matter to properly guage an opponent's intentions and decide how to respond appropriatley (ie: with what level of force). Obviously what you did worked. It may not work in all situations but it did with this one.

It seems the challenge lying before you is the emotional response. This is where martial training helps. One important component of training (for me) is the ability to control my actions when confronting the actions of another (verbal or physical). The concept of Mushin, for instance, involves this component. Perhaps you may be able to address your emotional response in your training. Just some food for thought.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2000 5:31 am 
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Jacuzzis:

Somethings are just bloody necessary! Again, thanks for the hospitality, Len.

Massage:

Well, Panther, I have been recommended on both sides of the Atlantic and from "sea to shining sea." However, I imagine you refer to Margaret who works/trains at Gary of K's dojo. I have yet to have the pleasure, but long lines exist at her area in the Summer Camps.

Topic:

In the dojo, we learn to stop taking defeat personal. When someone "tags" you--usually practicing one of the "face-blocks"--you learn to accept it rather than lose your temper or fall to pieces. Some handle this better than others, of course.

Outside, we have to learn how to prevent emotion from taking over. Not easy, of course, for we all hav emotions. Even if I could offer a verbal defense [Of Doom.--Ed.] to save our tushes in EVERY situation, like a "techique" we have to have presence of mind to use it. Much easier to invite the other to explore self-fulfilling relationships with himself and a corkscrew.

Thus, here is a way to break down the problem:

1. Emotion: controling anger
2. Content: answering or responding to different levels of threat.
3. Consequences: knowing that what we say will effect the action [Effect is intentional.--Ed.] thank you . . . and may have consequences of their own. Legally, we may "escalate" a conflict.

Right, any suggestions?

--J.D.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2000 10:00 pm 
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Hi folks,

Some more good advice and discussion on this forum, thanks.

My preference:

Japanese, specifically sushi. (But SAKI? What does that word mean anyway? Literal translation "bad wine")

Panther,

I knew what you were driving at, there was no offense taken. Just letting you folks know where the relationship stands. We are very tight, we are commited to one another, its just a good thing. A blessing, really. Thats what makes this whole issue interesting. Even though we are so close I find it next to impossible to communicate with her sometimes. This "obstacle" becomes even larger when broaching certain touchy subjects. This "hardwiring" makes things very challenging!

Heres a question I have been pondering:

If men are harwired to respond to these incidents with certain emotions, women must be as well.

So how would a woman respond to this situation, emotionaly? What thoughts, dark or otherwise would arise in her? Does seeing her man "back down" make him less attractive in her eyes/body? Evolutionarily speaking, I would guess that is exactly how she would feel and think. Based on my knowledge of women(HA!, thats a good one. Image)
I would also guess she would NEVER reveal such thoughts/emotions to me.

My emotions tell me I should have made my dominance over this jerk much more obvious. I should have ran him out of my "territory". One thing I should mention, which I don't know if people are clear on... When the guy threw that insult out he was not talking to my girl at all, he was challenging me, my manhood. He knew it, and I knew it. It was never really about her at all. Or was it? What say you guys and gals?

------------------
"There ain't no graduation from this kind of education"


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2000 1:09 am 
Billy,

You've got to let this thing go. Cut it loose, or it'll eat at you and possibly even cause you to do the wrong thing next time "to make up for it."

The important is how you deal with it in front of your woman, now that the issue is in the past, is going to help continue formulating and cementing her opinions of you.

<hr>

Len,

I have been meaning to congratulate you as new moderator to this forum. So, congratulations!



------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2000 3:18 am 
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Quote:

"Heres a question I have been pondering:

If men are harwired to respond to these incidents with certain emotions, women must be as well."

Where does that follow? This is one of the sources of your discomfort, Billy. Some really big assumptions. Here's another emotional hardwire- only one gender ever squirts milk when it hears a baby cry. Does it follow that the other gender has an equal reaction?

"Does seeing her man "back down" make him less attractive in her eyes/body?"

"Evolutionarily speaking, I would guess that is exactly how she would feel and think."

Billy, this is _your_ hard wiring! The dominance/sex/alpha male issue is internal. 60k years ago, the weak monkey got badly beaten and lost the harem. Your body is conditioned to situations that no longer apply, but your brain needs you to believe that there is a logical reason for your emotion. So you impose your expectations on your interpretation. Do not make the mistake of applying male monkey logic to women. The evolutionary forces that brought us to this point were vastly different.

Remember all those "Sexiest Woman/Man of the Year" magazine articles? How often is the woman over 30? Even 25? How often is the man under 30 or even 40? Translate Sean Connery into a female with the same statistics and try to drum up a vote. Or Brittney Spears into a male (alright, that would be Leonardo Dicaprio. He is an exception). Get it? Men and women don't look for the same things. We don't scan Playboy and say "Man, she really looks like she could back me up in a bar brawl." (Well, I do, but I get attracted about the same point most men get intimidated.)

Look at the men that women in national surveys pick as sexy. Survivors. Mature. Successful. I don't think Mike Tyson ever made the list. Eyebrow ridges, protruding jaws and a need to "stand up fer my wimmen" aren't on the list.

"Based on my knowledge of women(HA!, thats a good one. ) I would also guess she would NEVER reveal such thoughts/emotions to me."

Maybe not, but probably because she doesn't have them. What if she says "I vaguely remember that. I was afrid for a minute you were going to act like some kind of highschool jock moron. I was so glad you acted like an adult. Why do you bring it up?"

Remember, she has a survivor who is nice to her (you better be, anyway). She is far more hardwired to appreciate that.

Rory

The moral is: Your hard wiring is not hers. Ask her. Then listen.


[This message has been edited by RA Miller (edited July 22, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2000 8:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 391
Thanks Rory! You seem to have a knack for drilling through my thick skull!

How about it ladies? Is he on the money?


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