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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2000 6:43 pm 
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Is it more difficult for a physically imposing person to use VSD?

This question was originally posted by student in another thread on this forum.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2000 10:09 pm 
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Hmmm... no one responding yet. Want a "kick off"?

here goes nuttin'. Image

It depends...

OK, that's lame.

How about...

Of course it's easier for someone who is physically imposing to use VSD. They an obvious capability in being able to "reinforce" and control the situation. Not that it's a threat of violence, just that there's a certain amount of calm and confidence that a 290#, 6'4" athletically built brahma can afford! (OTOH, I know plenty of 5'4", 180# tigers who'd stand on the bar-chair to get in the brahma's face... Image )

If it wasn't easier for a physically imposing person to utilize VSD, then night clubs would hire "Wilbur the Wimp" instead of "Max the Muscle" as their bouncer...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2000 3:55 am 
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Panther,
I'm not sure I agree. I think if we really examined it there would be definite styles of VSD, which might work better with different body tapes, ala TKD and judo.
A three-hundred lb sumo wrestler couldn't pull a Columbo, for instance. I'm too small to talk reasonably while absent mindedly crushing a coffee cup in my fist. I know some officers who can go into "mother mode" and have cons apologizing for their language and celling in voluntarily. None of them are large.
Some large people can't use VSD- something about them just seems to invite attack (I cannot explain this, but I did casino security when I was younger. One of my partners was a college running back, big and in great shape. I was 5'8" and 150 lbs. People swung on him all the time. Almost never on me. By any extension of logic, Thai was the last person in there to pick a fight with but he was the one that everybody tried. He was a great talker but he didn't always get a chance to try it.)

Anyway, I think "that depends" said it all.

Rory


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2000 6:54 pm 
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Rory,

absolutely agree...

That's why I started off with "It depends", but deciding that sounded lame, I took one example. "It depends" is (as you've pointed out) the more correct answer. VSD is useful for anyone of any size... given the right circumstances... And given the wrong circumstances, it won't work no matter what! Image


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2000 8:21 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RA Miller:
Some large people can't use VSD- something about them just seems to invite attack (I cannot explain this, but I did casino security when I was younger. One of my partners was a college running back, big and in great shape. I was 5'8" and 150 lbs. People swung on him all the time. Almost never on me. By any extension of logic, Thai was the last person in there to pick a fight with but he was the one that everybody tried. He was a great talker but he didn't always get a chance to try it.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's in line with my point. You have to have congruence of messages, body language, VSD, etc. If you're attempting to disarm a situation verbally but your demeanor says "Go for it, bucko!" your chances for successful disarming drop a lot. Some people are perceived as being aggressive no matter what.

Jake and Coach Blauer would be better to post about this than I, but Coach's thesis in what he calls The Science Of The Sucker Punch is that your need to develop the 3 "D's": Detect, defuse, and defend.

As part of defuse he has you practice taking non-violent, placating postures similar to what Rory described in another thread - the body will want to go to those postures, why work against you natural instincts in you can make them work for you - or tweak them up to work even better?

I spent some time on these concepts in Suzette's Forum and it should be in the archives if anyone is interested.

student

[This message has been edited by student (edited August 18, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 3:19 pm 
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I agree that posture is very much a deterent to an attack however, If one was to take a defensive stance when raising the arms and postioning the legs, some would consider that a direct challenge to attack.

A larger than normal person who uses a calm and non threatening verbal retort will not be conveying a threatening posture. Verbal action and body language usually go together. An agressive attitude usually involves (to quote Rory) "the monkey dance", which is the waiving of the arms, the snear of the mouth while forming words, the tone of the voice, the raising of the pitch etc. The body will automatically respond in like fashion.

A large person who is calm but firm when arguing and makes no apparent body language threats, and can convey the message that " I will not attack you, but if you attck me, I will defend.

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Len Testa


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 6:06 pm 
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AHA! great topic - Now - let's relate this to women!

This can get real complex real fast - but here's a couple for starters - (or should I be starting this on my forum? more crossover again - does this make us "cross-posters"? Image )

"It depends" covers the infinite variables in human interaction - I submit that adding a gender to the equation causes the variables to multiply exponentially.

As far as "stature" as relates to VSD is concened - women generally being of smaller stature (at least for predators - haven't heard of predators going after women bigger than they are) what can they do as far as posture when using VSD? From my reading and research and some experience, a defensive posture with hands up palms out etc. is interpreted as submissive when used by a female and hence invites attack! Better here - from personal experience, is an AGRESSIVE verbal self defense - used by some street smart and tough women on a daily basis - and used successfully by more "average" women when faced with a threatening situation. ie. Moving in agressively, hands up and ready, maybe even in a fist (I know there are debates about that but that's another thread -my point is the agressive posture for a woman) with a loud firm voice and "garbage mouth" to the extent of "What the HELL do you think you are doing you a**hole!?! Get the f*** away from me before you REALLY get a response you don't want!"

I was being "dogged" on a college campus once - walking through some remote gardens to get from one building to a next (the ONLY route - a constant problem for security and unavoidable so save the armchair quarterbacking - I've been there) and more than one woman had been attacked in this area. Usually patrolled, but not as often as should be and not in broad daylight. So - this guy is following me around a few turns - and I sense him getting closer and closer - just as we are approaching the most remote area and I feel like he is seriously moving in on me I turn around quickly, get In His Face and responded as I wrote above - he threw up his hands - got flustered - backed up and stammered - "uh uh nothing!" then turned and ran in the other direction! Obviously not going to the same class I was.

I did this without thinking or planning - but was pleased at the outcome. And it has worked itself into my own scenario based training.

My point with this is that a female is not going to be perceived as the agressor in most cases - so these aspects of VSD do not apply across genders! They have to be adapted somehow... and I'd love to see some discussion on it! And as far as stature goes - the woman's stature alone is going to be the invitation for attack! So there goes the issue of effectiveness as relates to stature for a female.

Hope I didn't take this thread too far off track! To sum up I believe that stature alone is a problem for women trying to use VSD - and some techniques when offered by a woman will result in the ego-inflating laughter of the would-be attacker.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 22, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 2:15 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From my reading and research and some experience, a defensive posture with hands up palms out etc. is interpreted as submissive when used by a female and hence invites attack!
{snip}
Moving in agressively, hands up and ready, maybe even in a fist <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lori, to quote Tony Blauer once again, He states; “Do not adopt a defensive stance. Let your attacker believe that you will not fight back.” The element of surprise is the key factor if it turns physical. If you make your attacker aware you have knowledge in the martial ways (by placing your body in a defensive stance) may act as a challenge to him. You may need to defend yourself physically before you have a chance to diffuse verbally. He says use submissive posture, and congruous behavior to make it real. If you are perceived as being a threat to him, you may be in a situation that will suddenly turn physical. This method may work better for a male if another male confronts him, but not many will back down from a challenge, be it from a man or a woman.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Better here - from personal experience, is an AGRESSIVE verbal self defense - used by some street smart and tough women on a daily basis - and used successfully by more "average" women when faced with a threatening situation . {snip} (I know there are debates about that but that's another thread -my point is the agressive posture for a woman) with a loud firm voice and "garbage mouth" to the extent of "What the HELL do you think you are doing you a**hole!?! Get the f*** away from me before you REALLY get a response you don't want!"


This worked for Panther’s sister . (NOTE… see the Women and the “garbage mouth” thread on this forum)
I stated on my response to his post; most attackers will back down in a verbal exchange. Their mindset has changed because they inevitably thought they were dealing with a prey that will just roll over and comply with their demands.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
My point with this is that a female is not going to be perceived as the agressor in most cases - so these aspects of VSD do not apply across genders! They have to be adapted somehow... and I'd love to see some discussion on it! And as far as stature goes - the woman's stature alone is going to be the invitation for attack! So there goes the issue of effectiveness as relates to stature for a female.


Especially if she does not adopt an aggressive stance.

Thank you Lori for your comments. Real life stories are always learning experiences.
The key to survival is the willingness to defend yourself.

I would also like to see more discussion about this.


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Len Testa


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2000 6:50 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>gmattson
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posted in Women and the "garbage mouth" thread
August 22, 2000 05:11 PM
I remember an old adage "If you are small and pick a fight with a big guy and win, you are a hero. Lose and the big guy is a bully." In other words, the big guy always loses a fight. (This only works where lots of people are watching) Panther: Your Sis was in a win-win situation. Even drunk, the big guy had to reason that this gal, in this bar (with all his friends) had a big advantage. The only way he could defuse this nasty, self imposed embarrassing situation, which your sis had escalated into a "hit her or shut up" option, was to sit down and hope she would go away!------------------GEM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Panther
Member
posted in Women and the "garbage mouth" thread
August 24, 2000 10:12 AM quote: Originally posted by Professor Mattson: I remember an old adage "If you are small and pick a fight with a big guy and win, you are a hero. Lose and the big guy is a bully." In other words, the big guy always loses a fight. (This only works where lots of people are watching)

I know so many martial arts and lethal force instructors that have that same opinion! I share that opinion as well. I'm personally at a distinct disadvantage in any altercation, specifically because I'm 6'2", ~275# (now, but working on it ), have martial arts training AND carry. Back and knee injuries, shoulder displacement injuries, knee surgery and various other ailments that mean I basically can't run from an attacker make little difference in the perception of the general public. The fact that it is painful for me to walk, somedays I have to use a cane (cane techniques are neat ) and being in one position for too long causes my back to "freeze-up", won't win me any points in the eyes of the media were I to be involved in a confrontation. However, if my attacker were larger or there was more than one or there was some other disparity of force, then just maybe I'd be allowed some leavity by the authorities. Previously, I've been lucky in confrontations, with the responding LEOs understanding who was the attacker and who the intended victim... or in the fact that for obvious reasons I was the victim/survivor... but "times they are a changing" and all martial artists need to understand that. I feel certain that in today's anti-self-defense climate, given similar circumstances, I would be treated differently by a politically motivated DA. It has even been a topic for discussion at home... should a situation arise as before, having both myself and wife martial arts trained and both carrying, given the differences in our relative sizes, she would fair far better both in the media and in court than I would. Even if we took the exact same action for the exact same reasons. That's just a fact. The other thing that many, many folks don't realize is that there are a large number of men, smaller in stature, who feeling confident in the truth of your adage, will find a fight to pick or even create the situation. Simply because, for them, it is a win-win scenerio. They'll either be the hero for beating the big guy or the poor victim who gets the woman's sympathy. For anyone who thinks that big guys can't, won't or don't use VSD... in all the times that someone decided to pick a fight with me, it's rarely come to blows in all these decades... And those times, I felt no choice... out of options. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2000 10:41 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LenTesta:
Lori, to quote Tony Blauer once again, He states; “Do not adopt a defensive stance. Let your attacker believe that you will not fight back.” The element of surprise is the key factor if it turns physical. If you make your attacker aware you have knowledge in the martial ways (by placing your body in a defensive stance) may act as a challenge to him. You may need to defend yourself physically before you have a chance to diffuse verbally. He says use submissive posture, and congruous behavior to make it real. If you are perceived as being a threat to him, you may be in a situation that will suddenly turn physical. This method may work better for a male if another male confronts him, but not many will back down from a challenge, be it from a man or a woman.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Len - I'm having a hard time accepting this one across the board - although the wording allows for some varied interpretation (kind of like the bible eh? Image ). While I acknowledge the usefulness of the element of surprise - my thoughts are that this type of strategy can work better for women once the attack is underway ie. going limp - acting submissive - fearfully protesting - then fighting like a wildcat. But I don't like EVER encouraging a woman to adopt any sort of submissive posture during the woofing or verbal stage of the attack (I've referred to it before as "verbal rape" to some people's consternation). Yes - every situtation is different - but when it comes to the emotional hijack that the woofing, garbage mouth, shark nudges, or what ever take place on a female - to be submissive at this stage is to my mind only asking for it. Better to verbally take command of the situation when already at a gender disadvantage - (all women are - always. Not my opinion - just read the statistics - read deBecker etc. Not that men are not victims ever - they are - but MOST attacks upon women are done by MEN. Fact. Not feminazism.) than to allow the predator to move in.

At an aquarium one time I saw an interesting video about sharks - and great whites in particular. The research was to see the reactions of these predatory eating machines to different responses from the "prey" - when nudged by the shark (as will almost always happen before the attack - bad eyesight necesitates this "feeling out" of the potential meal) if the prey runs scared the shark will circle, almost act as if uninterested, then attack full force by surprise from behind. Happened according to this forumula over and over again. (sound anything like human predators?) BUT, when the intended prey turned around and poked at the shark with a stick, a camera (crazy insane researchers! Image ) or whatever available the shark lost interest, took off, and looked elsewhere for a meal that wasn't going to "fight back."

I am not suggesting that the submissive posture doesn't work ever when using verbal defense prior to an attack - only that I believe it is much less likely for that to work for a female. For females I prefer the strong verbal response at the verbal stage of the attack - using the submissive strategy after the attack begins - that is IF the presence of mind can be kept to remember to use it under the chemical response of the body to stress/fear.


P.S. - Len: would you mind turning HTML on for your forum when you get a chance? Won't change anything - except make it easier for some of us HTML habit people to post bold and italics etc...


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Peace,
Lori
Forum Recommended/Reviewed Books


[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 24, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:47 pm 
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I believe what Coach Blauer was trying to convey in his tape, was do not let the attacker know that you have any martial training by immediately showing a martial arts stance which would make the attacker aware that a physical confrontation is evident. This may work better for males attacked by other males. A female who shows that she will be a threat by immediately using a martial arts stance may scare the attacker away if the attacker was not prepared to have the victim fight back. Some research has proven this to be effective. Tony Blauer brings up the case of Albert DeSalvo (the Boston Strangler) who raped and killed many women. When asked why he murdered and raped so freely he stated that the women failed to fight back, not just physically, also verbally. Whenever someone resisted his threats, he turned and ran. Of course, this happened over 35 years ago when research of the serial killer’s traits began, and scenario training was in its infancy.

A submissive stance (maybe we should say non threatening instead of submissive) might include the hands up in crane position, (palms facing forward) with the elbows in Sanchin, signifying a stop sign. The lower body mechanics however should not be in any forward, cat or leaning type stance as this would definitely signal a full martial stance and would actually invite a physical challenge. By practicing to defend from a neutral stance, you are conveying a submissive posture and will not be perceived as a threat to the attacker. Your arms being in that position will help if the perpetrator makes a move to grab or hit.

Do not invoke submissive speech while the verbal exchange is taking place. By using questions such as how would you feel if I were your girlfriend/wife/mother and this was happening to her. Try to get the attacker to think emotionally. It may help diffuse the argument. Avoid asking questions such as what would you do if… You just might get an answer you will not like. Remember not everyone thinks alike and the verbal questioning may backfire. By being in a non threatening stance you will have the element of surprise at your disposal in case the attacker initiates a physical attack.

Do not ever believe an attacker if they state that “If you do not resist, I will not harm you”. The only thing that will accomplish is that they will have their way with you, and will still hurt you. If not physically then most certainly emotionally!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I am not suggesting that the submissive posture doesn't work ever when using verbal defense prior to an attack - only that I believe it is much less likely for that to work for a female. For females I prefer the strong verbal response at the verbal stage of the attack - using the submissive strategy after the attack begins - that is IF the presence of mind can be kept to remember to use it under the chemical response of the body to stress/fear.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Tony Blauer:

Acronym for FEAR… False Evidence Appearing Real <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure I agree with a submissive strategy after the verbal exchange has failed to work. When you now act on an attack, you must unleash the hidden (by submissive posture) tiger within and explode with multiple techniques. The element of surprise is now in your favor. Be prepared to run if the attacker withdraws or is knocked down to the ground.

If we can invent a VSD kihon that we can practice in our scenario training, in the dojo, then the chances of performing with the correct posture and verbiage will not fail. You will do as you practice!


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Len Testa

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited August 25, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:37 am 
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This is going to be real obvious and a lot of it will be repeats of the above.

Just as not all victims are the same, neither are all attackers or all situations.

In a blitz attack, VSD is useless. If the fight is hard, fight now and fight hard...unless strategy dictates a different response. Remember meta kihon? The predator is in a relationship. Prey fights or runs or screams. What if the prey had a seizure? Or fell limp, eyes open and staring?

In a woof, the motivation is dominance- any show of submission feeds the behavior. Verbal counter aggression puts the threat in the "put up or shut up" zone. The longer he prolongs it, the more visible his failure will be to witnesses, the greater loss of face. Because there are witnesses, he stands to lose even more face, win or lose. See why this worked in the other examples? But without witnesses, the same threat, feeling his manhood threatened would almost certainly "redeem" himself by violence and humiliation. Attackers motivation and the situation are critical here.

The predators who use a charming verbal approach to get close are IMO the most dangerous. De Becker described that better in the "Gift of Fear" than I ever could. VSD involves being harsh and firm.

I'd also like to draw a line between a submissive posture and a placating posture. From a smaller person, the palms out, hands up stance is placating and it will extend the interaction. Each second that the conversation continues will be taken by some as a "win". When their confidence builds, they will act. The biggest danger is that _you_ may believe it's working and being taken completely by surprise.

I have heard officers say "I thought I had him talked down. I though it was gonna be okay." They'd just placated him until he took it as weakness and got brave.

Submission is a complete and total defeat- "I'll do anything you want, just don't hurt me." It is, if you can keep your presence of mind, one of the best tactical positions to launch an assassination from. (I don't think 'fighting' should be taught in self-defense. I focus on awareness, assault dynamics, strategy, acting and close range assassination techniques.)

The biggest danger with even faking submission is that you might psych yourself into the real thing and that is doom.

Last thing for the ramble- never let yourself be handcuffed, tied, rendered unconscious or killed. If anyone does this, they are removing your power to control any of your fate. Always fight.

Rory


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