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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2000 3:11 pm 
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I thought about possible confrontations while trying to think of scenarios for VSD training. One type hit me as being extreemly difficult.

Will VSD work when you come face to face with an intuder in your home?

We all heard the story of the ex-Beatle George Harrison. We know he tried to use VSD. Did it fail because the intruder was a psycopath?

If you were in his situation, would you be able to tell the difference?

Would you still try to use VSD if you knew were confronted by a psycopath or someone who was hyped up on drugs?

Any thoughts...comments...?


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Len Testa


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2000 7:58 pm 
Len,

Excellent scenario. My first response to your question would be to cream to intruder and ask questions later. But thinking about it a bit, you must use some VSD to determine some critical, must know factors.

When you first meet this intruder, it is more than likely at night when darkness works to their advantage. In the darkness it is difficult to determine if the intruder is carrying any weapons. You must engage in VSD as a sort of negotiation to determine what your next move is depending on the weapons scenario, intruder's state of mind, multiple intruders, etc.

Many intruders will simply try to escape if confronted which is the best scenario. No one gets hurt. VSD wins in this case.

However, if the intruder turns around and is carrying a blade or worse yet a gun, then you may not be so quick to blindly attack and cream them as my initial reaction stated. Again, VSD wins in this case as it has armed you with additional information.

So I guess in hindsight, I would change my initial reaction to now begin with VSD to set the stage for what happens in the next few minutes.


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2000 8:50 pm 
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Hmmmm... In the dark of the middle of the night, an obvious intruder breaks into your house and startles you awake. Should you try to use VSD?

[snip] Sorry Panther. This statement was too close to being a personal insult. Words with only the first letter rearanged can be descrambled easily by anyone older than 8 years old.
Len Testa

The goal is to remain safe and if you haven't got your house wired so that you can light the place up like a christmas tree from your "safe-room" (which most people don't, but building your own house allows for certain benefits) or your house isn't situated such that potential intruders will alert you before getting to the inner perimeter (again, building your own house has some advantages), then the chances that simply asking the intruder to leave will work are very slim and ignores the fact that speaking will give away part of your tactical advantage.

OTOH, even though it probably wouldn't be considered "VSD", I've found that standing in a hallway (with a nice echo throughout the house) and racking the slide of a 12ga does wonders for convincing intruders to leave. Image I don't live there anymore.

YMMV...



[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited November 30, 2000).]


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:18 pm 
Panther-san,

Quote
_____________________________________________
then the chances that simply asking the intruder to leave will work are very slim and ignores the fact that speaking will give away part of your tactical advantage.
_____________________________________________

I see your point and agree with not giving away your tactical advantage which is why I stated that my first reaction was to cream them and ask questions later.

However, in my case, I do not have guns in my house nor do I have a safe area which I can retreat to and so feel that I would want to get as much information as possible before making a move that, if acted on too quickly, could cost me more than I wanted.

I am not talking about walking up to the intruder and asking them to leave. VSD could be anything from screaming my head off like a lunatic from some unseen place to throwing on some lights and catching them with that deer in the headlights look. Their initial reaction to whatever it is that I do will be the negotiation that I mentioned and will feed me valuable information with which I can determine how to proceed. If I hear them chamber a round in a 12 gauge, I will definitely be thinking twice about attacking them.

Also, you bring up a good point about what constitutes VSD. The sound of a 12 gauge in my mind is another form of VSD because it makes people react without any physical interaction taking place. Having the sound of some big mother of a dog growling is also quite effective. Image

As always Panther-san, I enjoy reading your insightful replies to posts. Image


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:39 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
When someone enters my house, uninvited, my VSD is deadly force first, ask questions later! Sorry, but no time for talk. . .

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GEM


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:47 pm 
I don't think Clarence had time to say much except for maybe "Yo Muh Fuh!" Not exactly VSD.

BTW, does anyone know how well he recovered from his gunshot wounds?


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:48 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Pelletier:

However, in my case, I do not have guns in my house nor do I have a safe area which I can retreat to and so feel that I would want to get as much information as possible before making a move that, if acted on too quickly, could cost me more than I wanted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a shame... Racking a 12 ga isn't always an option as your case points out. Image But there's really no reason why every home can't have a "safe room". In our house it's the master bedroom. What turns it into a "safe room"? Here are some things to consider:

1) Have a cellular phone that is fully charged in the "safe room", in the event that the bad guys decide to cut the phone lines.
2) Have multiple flashlights in the "safe room" and hopefully a rechargeable hi-powered spotlight, in case the bad guys decide to cut the power.
3) Change the normal interior-grade hollow-core door to a solid-core exterior-grade door with a keyed lock and deadbolt that goes at least 1" into the stud-frame (not the jamb, the stud-frame).
4) Have a set of house keys attached to a cylume stick so that after you call 911, you can guide the officers to your window and toss them a set of keys to enter your house. (If you don't have a contengency or the training, let the officers clear your house, it's their job and they're pros at it...)

There are other things that can/should be done, but those are a few guidelines to being safe at home. All it takes to start thinking along these lines is to have a place where you live get broken into... (Yeah, we once owned a house in a "not-so-good" part of the city.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I am not talking about walking up to the intruder and asking them to leave. VSD could be anything from screaming my head off like a lunatic from some unseen place to throwing on some lights and catching them with that deer in the headlights look. Their initial reaction to whatever it is that I do will be the negotiation that I mentioned and will feed me valuable information with which I can determine how to proceed. If I hear them chamber a round in a 12 gauge, I will definitely be thinking twice about attacking them.


If you hear them racking a 12ga and you're unarmed, I'd strongly suggest finding a back way OUT! Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Also, you bring up a good point about what constitutes VSD. The sound of a 12 gauge in my mind is another form of VSD because it makes people react without any physical interaction taking place. Having the sound of some big mother of a dog growling is also quite effective. Image


yep, dogs are also great. Interestingly enough, at our current house, a couple of years ago everyone on the street started getting hit by some burglars. Even though most houses were alarmed! Only two houses were spared, ours and another one... we have a German Shepherd and a Shepherd mix, the other folks have Rotties! The two houses with DOGS... (one other place had one of those little "kick-me" dogs - as the neighbors called him afterwards. Image )

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
As always Panther-san, I enjoy reading your insightful replies to posts. Image


Ummmm... Thanks. Oh yeah, back to the idea of a 12ga being a form of VSD... Here's another one that's related that I guess would also qualify. That's having the leader of the punks who're threatening to rob you of your cash and car suddenly look down and see the little bouncing red dot on his chest... Image

I didn't use it, but someone I know did. When the officer's arrived, the score was three punks ran like hell, one was sitting on the curb crying, and the leader was standing there shaking with his pants wet. Image



[This message has been edited by Panther (edited November 29, 2000).]


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2000 10:11 pm 
Panther-san,

Thanks for the tips on the safe room. What happens to the kids sleeping in their rooms though? In this case, you would not have the time to wake them up and get them to your room without some sort of confrontation taking place between you and the intruders. Also you could not expect your kids to react properly as my kids are nearly impossible to wake up and I would not even consider making myself safe knowing that they are exposed.

quote:
_____________________________________________
If you hear them racking a 12ga and you're unarmed, I'd [strongly suggest finding a back way OUT!
_____________________________________________

Fully agree. This is all part of the VSD negotiation that will feed me valuable information on how to react. I would not want to hear it racking once I have committed to the attack without knowing it was there.


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2000 4:31 am 
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Len,

I think we need to seriously discuss the parameters for effective VSD. Our agency uses a six level Use of Force continuum. The worst situation I can remember resulted from level four control holds being used in a clear level 5 situation.

What I'm getting at is that VSD is very appropriate and effective for a certain level of threat. But it can be dangerous and counter-productive at another level.

Someone who performs a home-invasion has just shown a lack of socialization at an extreme level. Having shown a disregard for rules, authority, private property, privacy and even basic animal territoriality right off it is very, very unlikely that any response more civilized than naked force (or the threat thereof) will only reinforce their behavior, identifying the VSD user as a choice victim.

Rory


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2000 4:32 am 
Dog-gone it

It would be a shame to get spooked in the middle of the night, pick up the shotgun [which is better for home defense than a handgun], see some movement or a shadow and open fire only to find out it was your child or spouse. Bet that has happened more thna once.

Dogs are the best deterrent as far as I'm concerned, especially the mean hungry ones with the big teeth who like to sharpen them on bones -- human bones.


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2000 5:12 am 
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Lt. Strong writes that home intruders are the worst of criminals..rape, torture, beatings, and murder. Home intrusions result in the highest rate of serious injuries and murder.

Your own home becomes crime scene no. two; isolation, time, control by the attackers. Brutal and sadistic criminals.

When a family is trapped in by home intruders, cops know it will be long and brutal, going from robbery to terrorism and sadism almost every time.

He writes that in these situations the usual mindsetting is insufficient unless supported by family role-play.

Buy the book “Strong on defense “ and read it!




------------------
Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited December 02, 2000).]


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2000 5:34 am 
Judging by the responses to this scenario, I seem to be highly outnumbered in my response that some very minimal level of VSD is required before taking action. That's OK but please let me explain a little further. My VSD is not to give the intruder a chance to back away because I agree in that case it would turn ugly very fast.

The VSD I am talking about and calling the "negotiation" is right along the lines with what Allen stated. You have to fully know what you are up against (or who in Allen's example) before you react. Reacting prematurely and blindly could and probably would have devestating results that you did not anticipate.

By initial VSD negotiations, this is not to be misunderstood as a two way conversation that you embark on with the intruder. I mean that it can be any form of deliberate noise, movement, or action that allows you to increase your odds from the point of where you first crawled out of bed and knew nothing except that you heard a noise and grabbed your gun.

I understand all the comments made about the type of deprived sick individual that is a home invader. And I agree that they should be dealt with swiftly to end any potential threat they are forcing upon you or your family. I have no sympathy for these people and would like to see them removed from the gene pool just as much as anyone else. Image

I just feel that you have to fully know who is roaming around your house (again, Allen's comments scare me), and what the situation is before pulling the trigger. If after the initial negotiation you now have confirmation that this is some scum meaning you harm, then happy hunting. Besides the horrible situation of shooting a family member, it does no good if I decide to attack and end up getting shot in the process because I did not realize that they had a weapon or there were even two of them.

Just my thoughts.

[This message has been edited by Randy Pelletier (edited November 30, 2000).]


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2000 3:31 pm 
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By Allen, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
It would be a shame to get spooked in the middle of the night, pick up the shotgun [which is better for home defense than a handgun], see some movement or a shadow and open fire only to find out it was your child or spouse. Bet that has happened more than once.


I would say this scares me the most. I have older children now, who sometimes get up in the middle of the night (or morning as one sometimes has to be at work at 5:00 A.M.).

I, however am a very heavy sleeper. I usually do not hear them moving around. I depend on my wife for this. Amazing how opposites attract! She can hear a pin drop on a carpet when she is sleeping. The first thing she does when she hears a noise is call out the name of one of our children (VSD?). She usually guesses correctly by the sounds that they make. My oldest walks heavy. My second oldest is stealth like, but sometimes he is up early because he has to be in work by 5:00 A.M. My daughter is rarely ever up early unless she is sick.
If my wife calls out the wrong name, the response is "no, its...", and the matter is settled. If she calls out a name and no one answers (happened only once), then I am awakened. Once I have been awakened, the noise has already been determined to be suspicious. She alerts me to the fact that there could be a intruder in the house or trying to get in. At this point there is no more VSD used because I know she has tried it. We have a gun in the house. An old rusty rifle that has not been fired in 10 years and is never loaded. I always keep it somewhere nearby my bed. I never walk around the house while seeking out an intruder without this in my hands. It is real and in the dark it looks like it works fine. At least I can use it as a bat. In this one unique situation I snuck out of my bedroom, staying close to the walls while going from room to room. The intruder turned out to be a raccoon tearing off the cover of our trash can and digging out some free food. It sure sounded like an attempted break in though.

I like Panther's safe room. The key on the cylume stick is a great idea. However, I have my master bedroom on opposite side of the house from the other bedrooms. Any intruder, unless they forced their way into my bedroom first, would be directly in between me and my children. When the children were young we worried about this. Now we do not worry as much, but still, they have no self-defense training and VSD could be a social disease for all that they know. We do not have a dog. My wife is not an animal lover. She can tolerate animals, but does not want them in her house.

Would I use VSD if I was to find out that someone was breaking in, or is already in the house. It depends on where the person is. If they are breaking in, and have not yet got inside, I might use a bluff phrase. Maybe something like "Stick your head in the window and I will blow it off." More than likely it may cause the intruder to flee. He is already outside and does not know that the gun is not loaded. If the intruder is already inside, I am not sure what would I would do as this has not ever happened to me before. I certainly respect all the suggestions that have been made and I would like to be able to come up with a step by step process for determining the best possible solution for a scenario drill.

I am going to get a laser pointer and secure it to my rifle. At least I can scare the heck out of an intruder when he sees that red dot on his chest. I am sure that he wont stick around to find out if the gun is really loaded.

Now what about multiple intruders? Can VSD work in this situation? Would you do or say anything that may even sacrifice your well being to save your family. I assume that if I had my gun in my hand this time, it should be loaded, even though I don't know if it will fire anymore.

There does seem to be consensus about not trying to use VSD for intruders in your home. You might have justifiable homicide while in defense of life and property in your home. But at what expense? Your family members, or even you, may be part of the carnage and no amount of money or property is worth that risk to me.

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Len Testa


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2000 9:46 pm 
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Sigh... Forgive me for not getting back on this until now. There are ways to maximize your chances and ways to increase the survivability of you AND your family. That's the good news... (for now, let's not drop the other shoe.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Pelletier:

What happens to the kids sleeping in their rooms though? In this case, you would not have the time to wake them up and get them to your room without some sort of confrontation taking place between you and the intruders. Also you could not expect your kids to react properly as my kids are nearly impossible to wake up and I would not even consider making myself safe knowing that they are exposed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Image I would never suggest making yourself safe while leaving your loved ones exposed!!

For full disclosure, we don't have kids. It's just me and the missus and she has a target that was signed by Mas Ayoob where she was the best shot in the class... Image I'm not worried about her. Image Regardless, I've helped more than one person set-up their house for maximum security of the occupants.

IF it is feasable to make the parent's (or "master") bedroom the safe room, that is usually the best choice, but not necessarily. I know of one house where the master bedroom suite is on the first floor and the kid's rooms are on the second floor. In that house, fortunately, the stairway to the second floor is right outside the master bedroom. One of the second floor bedrooms was chosen to be the safe room. As previously suggested, they changed the door and have a place where they put the cell-phone, cylume-keys, flashlights, and some firearms. Yes, it is a kid's room, no the kid's don't have access to this "safety rescue equipment" (if anyone wants/needs to know how this is done, just ask... it's easy). One other addition that I was shocked that they hadn't made even prior to these was one of those roll-up fire-escape ladders that is on the top shelf of each second story room's closet now. It still amazes me how many people with second story rooms still don't throw one of these in the corner of the closet!


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2000 9:47 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Allen M:

It would be a shame to get spooked in the middle of the night, pick up the shotgun [which is better for home defense than a handgun], see some movement or a shadow and open fire only to find out it was your child or spouse. Bet that has happened more thna once.

Dogs are the best deterrent as far as I'm concerned... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, shotguns are generally best for home defense. However, many people want something that they can also carry outside the home without having to purchase and practice with multiple choices. I can completely understand why a moderate income woman would chose to purchase the best pistol that she can afford to protect her family and use it for all self defensive scenerios. In fact, I know that woman... this year she's going to be purchasing a police trade-in Remington 870 pump shotgun for home defense. (Little more than $200 and it already has the shorter barrel and tactical grips... don't ask, she's already got it on layaway at my urging. Image )

Now... While the scenerio you mentioned has happened before and it is tragic (make no mistake about what I'm saying here), the fact is that it is just a plain-assed example of poor technique, poor-training and unsafe gun handling! If you know that you are incapable of functioning in an emergency, life-threatening situation from deep sleep to 100% "ON" at the blink of an eye without having a couple of cups of coffee, then just forget it! The person who can't gain alertness within a minute (sixty second or less) should think seriously about whether a firearm is the way they want to go. Having said that, if you had firearms training, you'd know that bringing a firearm to bear on a target that is not 1001% identified is a huge F'in' NO-NO! No one, I've ever worked with has had that problem! Image

About that dog... Like I've said, I have two big dogs and they're great. However, I gotta tell you about someone who made the same mistake of relying solely on their dog... He told me that his family was safe because he had a trained attack German Shepherd. (Yeah, riiiight, with two young children... Image ) Anyway, I bet him $50 that I could get past his trained "attack" dog and to his bedroom without him knowing it. To prevent me from breaking a window, he left the bulkhead open for me to "sneak in"... All it took was a big old beef bone with lots of meat on it to make that dog my best buddy. If I'd have wanted to the dog would have probably shown me where the jewelry was hidden! Image Dogs are nice deterents, but they aren't everything...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:

... in these situations the usual mindsetting is insufficient unless supported by family role-play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheesh! I will never understand it... We all go to the dojo and train. We all work on self-defense, VSD, staying in "Condition Yellow", yet people don't do "what ifs" with their families!?! Image fercryinoutloud!



[This message has been edited by Panther (edited November 30, 2000).]


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