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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2000 2:06 pm 
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Location: Brockton, MA, USA
Good Post Randy!

It makes good sense to me!

I was beginning to think, no matter where a Martial Artist was confronted by an assailant, that VSD would not even be attempted. You have restored my faith in the phrase; Only fight if it is absolutely necessary.

I am interested in what your fellow students said about this situation.
What would be your opening line if confronted in the home?
Would the adrenaline dump that is occurring make the tone of your voice appear as though you are frightened, cautious, serious, or threatening?
Would your VSD involve questions or demands?

These are important questions because we need to determine if VSD can at least buy you time while another family member is calling the police or even trying to escape the premises.

It is hard to be calm when someone is invading our home. Anger in the tone of one’s voice while using VSD will cause the intruder to become more violent.
Do you agree with this statement? If so, how can we prepare for this event, so that our words and tone will be under our control?



------------------
Len Testa


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2000 2:56 pm 
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First, I never said not to use VSD! Even though I didn't call it that before, I've used VSD to save my butt more times than I can count... WAY more times than I've gotten into physical confrontations. What I did say was that I wouldn't bother using VSD with a home intruder. Obviously the exact situation will dictate what is feasable and given certain circumstances, I'd use VSD to the point of indicating that the police have been notified or are on their way and that if they don't leave I'm armed and prepared to defend my family. But that's only for a very few circumstances. "Shoot and ask questions later" isn't (necessarily) my course of action, but skipping the "interview" and escalating directly to Condition Black is perfectly legal and legitimate in a home invasion! Think about the statistics of "hot" burglaries. ("Hot" meaning when people are at home.) The perp has already shown that he doesn't care about you or your loved ones. The perp has already shown a willingness to confront someone, which means a willingness to harm someone to get what the societally-challenged individual(s) want. And further research/statistics of "hot" home invasions has shown (as previously pointed out by Mr. Miller and Mr. Canna **) that these cases very often turn into brutal sadistic torture of the occupants. Not always, but ask yourself if you are willing to take that chance with your wife and/or child... No, when someone makes the decision to invade a home, they made the decision and I'm not inclined to stand there and try to "diffuse" the situation with them! I never have and never will tell anyone what my personal safety precautions are in my home. I just offered some suggestions based on things that have been done for others and where we used to live for various reasons... such as living in a not-so-great urban neighborhood and not having the financial ability to move at the time. If you want to insure your family's safety and make the choice (for whatever reason) to not arm yourself (hey, that's fine, that's valid... not everybody has the same needs, requirements or reasons... I'm not advocating gun ownership for everyone...), then think about the suggestions that were made. If you don't want to hurt/confront a home invader, then the best bet is being in a "safe room" where you can tell the burglar (through a big thick, reinforced door) to go away, the police are enroute. Paranoid? Maybe... Prepared? Definitely... Required? Not necessarily... Advisable? Only you know your neighborhood and/or situation...

Second, it is true that the overall crime rate in Canada is lower than the U.S. overall crime rate. But it is also true that there are areas in the U.S. with lower crime rates, areas in Canada with higher crime rates, and vice-versa. One thing has happened in Britain (and even though it's not as bad in Canada as the U.K., it is still a more common phenomena than in the U.S.) and that is the rate of "hot" burglaries is higher than the U.S. Overall burglaries are lower than the U.S., but the ones where people are home is higher in Canada and much higher in Britain! Surveys of incarcerated criminals in these countries give one of the main reasons. (I can't find my data on Canada right now, but with some indulgence, I'll use Britain as the responses were similar.) In the U.S., 74% of the criminals surveyed said that they avoided break-ins where someone might be home because of fear that they would get shot. (IIRC, the Canadian survey was in the ~45% range based on the fact that these criminals felt that there was generally a much lower gun ownership rate in Canada... interestingly enough, the ones responding that they were afraid of meeting armed resistance were from the more rural areas.) In the U.K., over 70% of the criminals surveyed said that they had "no worries" about breaking into a house with people home! When asked why, the main reason given was that with Britain's complete gun control, they knew the people generally couldn't fight back!

So, having said all that, I wish everyone a safe and happy household... and if someone does break in and you make the choice to attempt to use VSD and "diffuse" the poor societally-challenged individual's simply misguided attitude... well, no offense, but... I'll send flowers to the funeral. Image

** In rememberance of Pearl Harbor, I'll try to use the American, rather than Japanese honorary titles today. To all the vets, Thank You.



[This message has been edited by Panther (edited December 07, 2000).]


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2000 4:32 pm 
Quote by Len;
__________________________________________________________________________________________What would be your opening line if confronted in the home?
Would the adrenaline dump that is occurring make the tone of your voice appear as though you are frightened, cautious, serious, or threatening?
Would your VSD involve questions or demands?
__________________________________________________________________________________________
I will ask these questions tonight at class and reply back with their responses. I fully agree that it would be extremely hard to remain clam when confronted with someone in your home. The tone of your voice and what the response is will determine a lot.

Quote by Panther;
__________________________________________________________________________________________
But it is also true that there are areas in the U.S. with lower crime rates, areas in Canada with higher crime rates, and vice-versa.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

I fully agree. Again, I was not painting all of the US or Canada with the same brush but rather pointing out that laws and society as a whole will have heavy influence on a person's reaction in dealing with specific circumstances.

Quote by Panther;
__________________________________________________________________________________________
In the U.S., 74% of the criminals surveyed said that they avoided break-ins where someone might be home because of fear that they would get shot. (IIRC, the Canadian survey was in the ~45% range based on the fact that these criminals felt that there was generally a much lower gun ownership rate in Canada... __________________________________________________________________________________________
This statistic caught me off guard but after thinking about it makes perfect sense. Of course a perp would feel that his chances of success are better in a country where severe gun laws restrict the average person from possessing a weapon. This definitely weighs heavily in your favor as a deterent. Since however, I live in a country that does have stricter gun laws, this goes towards my point that VSD now becomes a more probable first response.

Quote by Panther;
__________________________________________________________________________________________
So, having said all that, I wish everyone a safe and happy household
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Thank you and you as well.

Quote by Panther;
__________________________________________________________________________________________
and if someone does break in and you make the choice to attempt to use VSD and "diffuse" the poor societally-challenged individual's simply misguided attitude...
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Hmmm....I don't think I would use it to try to diffuse the poor perp but rather, as I have said all along, to try to gather as much information about the current situation before reacting. I would have no intention of engaging in conversation with the perp. My VSD might only last a five word sentence. "The police have been called!!" The perps reaction to that statement would give me a lot of information. Is he armed? Are there multiple perps? What room of the house is he in? Is this just my kid getting a glass of milk?

Quote by Panther;
__________________________________________________________________________________________
no offense, but... I'll send flowers to the funeral
__________________________________________________________________________________________
No offense taken. This is simply a difference of situations. Your thoughts and ideas are very valid and have given me much to think about. And as for the flowers part, let's hope that never happens.

Regards,
Randy


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2000 9:58 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Pelletier:

Hmmm....I don't think I would use it to try to diffuse the poor perp but rather, as I have said all along, to try to gather as much information about the current situation before reacting. I would have no intention of engaging in conversation with the perp. My VSD might only last a five word sentence. "The police have been called!!" The perps reaction to that statement would give me a lot of information. Is he armed? Are there multiple perps? What room of the house is he in? Is this just my kid getting a glass of milk?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's understandable. If the layout of the house was such, I'd probably check to see if the kids are in bed. Otherwise, I'd certainly (as was already suggested) say something like, "Honey, is that you?" or "Everything alright?" There are documented cases in the U.S. (don't have any info on Canada) where calls to 911 have taken well over an hour to arrive... and even cases where there was never [I}any[/I] response. Unfortunately, there's more than one recording of someone being murdered while 911 was on the line. Image I just prefer not to rely on the police for my family's safety... instead preferring to consider the police as the guys that come and clean up afterwards.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
No offense taken. This is simply a difference of situations. Your thoughts and ideas are very valid and have given me much to think about. And as for the flowers part, let's hope that never happens.


I must apologize for being, well... flippant with that comment. G-D, I hope it never happens either! Image I feel like family with everyone on these forums and, well... none of us wants our family hurt! Image

Be safe...


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2000 5:55 am 
As promised from yesterday, I raised the following question in class.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What would be your opening line if confronted in the home?
Would the adrenaline dump that is occurring make the tone of your voice appear as though you are frightened, cautious, serious, or threatening?
Would your VSD involve questions or demands?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The class tonight consisted of two women and six men. I posed these questions to the class as a whole and asked for everyone to give me their personal thoughts. I reinforced the fact that what you are stating now is when you are amongst friends in a non-threatening environment and everyone would probably give initial responses that tend to be a bit braver than reality would dictate.

The group as a whole all agreed that they would be forceful and serious in their VSD. The split came between the men and women. The women agreed that they would repeatedly scream "GET OUT!!!"" at the top of their lungs. The men, however, all agreed that they would basically say "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GOING?!?!?!?! GET OUT OF MY HOUSE!!!!" The men would also be more inclined to approaching the perp soon afterward and take immediate forceful action once the initial VSD gave them the information that they required.

Everyone agreed that appearing frightened in your response would be a mistake. Appearing threatening meant that you had better be willing to back it up. Appearing serious seemed logical in the sense that the perp now knows that the victim is not a pushover waiting to be attacked.

This was a very interesting subject of discussion to say the least. Keep in mind that with these responses, it was generally assumed that no guns were involved. Everything else within reach was fair game for a weapon.

Regards,
Randy


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2000 1:40 pm 
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Thanks to Randy and his students for the excellent responses to my questions.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Appearing threatening meant that you had better be willing to back it up. Appearing serious seemed logical in the sense that the perp now knows that the victim is not a pushover waiting to be attacked.


According to Tony Blauer in his Cerebral Self Defense Tape, he sates that you should act on perceived vulnerability. He goes on to say, “do not fight fire with fire. It will only make a bigger fire. Fight fire with water. The yin and yang thing. Do not adopt a defensive stance. Let your attacker believe you will not hurt him. The element of surprise is the key factor.”

Would you consider acting this way in a home invasion scenario where you have family members at risk, or would you only use this method if you were not in your own home and were confronted on the street?

If you shout commands such as those that Randy and his students have suggested, do you think that would make the perpetrator more apt to attack you and your family?

Please forgive all the questions. I want to be able to analyze and document some procedures and responses to various attacks for scenario training. All situations are different and therefore all scenarios will be different.

Randy, I, and the rest who post here on this forum have taken the first step toward Conflict Resolution in the modern Uechi-ryu dojo, Talking about the possibilities of the conflict will help to create awareness of the various situations. Let us keep on trying to dig deeper into these situations and document a scenario for training in the dojo. It wont be easy, everyone has a valid opinion and not all responses will work. However, what are the alternatives if you are not prepared?


------------------
Len Testa


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2000 4:08 pm 
Hi Len,

Just a point of clarification as I don't wish to misrepresent myself or for anyone to be mislead.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Thanks to Randy and his students for the excellent responses to my questions.

You are most welcome for the feedback and I feel it is necessary to point out that these are not my students but rather I am one of the students of Sensei Rick Wilson who was an integral part of the questions and answers last night.
The scenario and use of VSD brought out a lot of passion in the students and made for a very enlightening and thought provoking 1/2 hour discussion.

The thanks you mentioned Len, mostly goes to Sensei Wilson for indulging me in discussing VSD response to your scenario and for encouraging the class to continue to explore the varying aspects of self defense. Image

Regards,
Randy
http://www.wilsonkarate.com


[This message has been edited by Randy Pelletier (edited December 08, 2000).]


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 Post subject: The Intruder
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2000 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
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Location: Brockton, MA, USA
Thanks...to Rick Wilson for allowing a 1/2 hour of valuable workout time to be spent on discussing VSD. Not many Sensei's are willing to set aside that much time for discussion.

Sensei Wilson, I, and our students are doing our very best to make Verbal Confrontation Resolution a first line of defense for Uechi-ryu practioners.

Keep the thoughts and Ideas comming Randy, you are just as much a part of the process.




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Len Testa


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