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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Pelletier:

Besides the horrible situation of shooting a family member, it does no good if I decide to attack and end up getting shot in the process because I did not realize that they had a weapon or there were even two of them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope I've cleared this mistake up already, but just in case... There is no way in he!! that anyone should be trying to "clear their house of bad guys"!! That's a job for professionals, like the local police and that is what they are paid to do! Your goal is, or should be, simple. Get your loved ones into a safe area, call for help, and prepare to defend against anyone that breaks into your safe area with whatever force is necessary to keep your loved ones safe. In fact, when you call the police on the cellular phone that you have in your safe room, you should give them these instructions: 1) When you arrive, come to this area of the yard and say this word (pick a special word, it doesn't make any difference, asparagus will do, just to let you know it's an LEO), 2) When we hear the correct word from the responding officer, then we will toss a set of house keys connected to a cylume stick out the window, 3) the officer has our permission to enter our residence with those keys and clear out anyone that is not locked in the master bedroom (safe room), 4) we will be locked in this room and here's where it is located, the officer must contact dipatch over the radio and dispatch must tell us over the phone that the officer is outside the door to this room (hey, it doen't always happen, but it doesn't hurt to ask , 5) the cylume-keychain will have a key to this room for the officer to enter (this is another way for you to tell if it's an officer that is coming in the door) and the officer should loudly announce that he is an LEO and is entering before and during entry, 6) we are lawfully armed and anyone who attempts to enter this room by forceful entry or without announcing who they are will be considered a murderous intruder and that threat will be stopped. You have just made yourself, your loved ones AND the officers all knowledgable of the situation and taken into account each person's safety... Belive me, LEOs really appreciate that. They just want to make it home to be with their loved ones like the rest of us. Being in a "safe room" is your best bet for survival.

An example of why you should not try to clear your own house during an intrusion. In all the scenerio training for bad guys in a house, there is only one person that has ever survived... ONE!
His method for clearing the two-story structure was thus: When the "go" signal was given, he ran in the front door, running through the house at full tilt, shooting all targets, hostile and hostage alike, went to the second floor continuing that technique, ran to the back window and jumped through it to the ground doing a roll. He survived the drill and in the process "killed" every "hostage" as well as every "hostile"! He was congradulated on being the only person to survive and then scolded for killing "hostages". Soooo, he was allowed to try again, since he survived. When the "go" signal was given, he yelled at the top of his lungs, "ALL RIGHT ALL YOU HOSTAGES, STAY DOWN, 'CAUSE I'M COMING THROUGH!" And proceeded to do the exact same thing a second time! These scenerios were being run for trained LEOs...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Len Testa:

We have a gun in the house. An old rusty rifle that has not been fired in 10 years and is never loaded. I always keep it somewhere nearby my bed. I never walk around the house while seeking out an intruder without this in my hands. It is real and in the dark it looks like it works fine. At least I can use it as a bat.

(snip)

I am going to get a laser pointer and secure it to my rifle. At least I can scare the heck out of an intruder when he sees that red dot on his chest. I am sure that he wont stick around to find out if the gun is really loaded.

(snip)

Would you do or say anything that may even sacrifice your well being to save your family. I assume that if I had my gun in my hand this time, it should be loaded, even though I don't know if it will fire anymore.

... You might have justifiable homicide while in defense of life and property in your home. But at what expense? Your family members, or even you, may be part of the carnage and no amount of money or property is worth that risk to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm.... Since you obviously have all the proper licensing in place (even longarms that have been neglected and turned into worthless hunks of rust are still covered under Chapter 180), I'd suggest cleaning up that rifle and taking it to see if it's well-regulated, ummmm, that's founding father's speak for "properly functioning". Besides it won't do you any good if it doesn't work and is unloaded. Also, be aware that you just posted your tactic on a public forum... It's a good thing you're going to go and make sure that your chosen home defense firearm is in good working order. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) The laser pointer is a decent idea, but remember that in the dark you are also giving away your position by turning it on. Just a consideration. And I generally strongly urge people to refrain from "bluffing" in any confrontation. I've done it and it even worked... I know others who weren't so lucky. It's not a good tactic. Always be able to back-up your words with actions. Following the guidelines that I previously gave, you, your family and responding LEOs should be spared being part of the carnage (unless you've declared yourself a religion and failed to pay a $200 disputed tax), as for anyone else that is part of the carnage... TFS as long as my loved ones survive.

I think I am going to get myself a dog. And it's going to be a vegetarian dog. Is there even such a thing?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>by Panther:

There is no way in he!! that anyone should be trying to "clear their house of bad guys"!! That's a job for professionals, like the local police and that is what they are paid to do! Your goal is, or should be, simple. Get your loved ones into a safe area, call for help, and prepare to defend against anyone that breaks into your safe area with whatever force is necessary to keep your loved ones safe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once it has been determined that an intruder is in fact in the house, this is the safest way to keep you and your family safe.
Providing of course that all can reach the safe room without the perp knowing.

Would you still try to use VSD by letting the intruder/s know that you have called the police and that they are on the way? If you do, they might believe you and high tail it out of there, eliminating the possibility of any more further damage to your house and property and possible injury to you and or your loved ones.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>again, by Panther:

In fact, when you call the police on the cellular phone that you have in your safe room, you should give them these instructions: 1) When you arrive, come to this area of the yard and say this word (pick a special word, it doesn't make any difference, asparagus will do, just to let you know it's an LEO), 2) When we hear the correct word from the responding officer, then we will toss a set of house keys connected to a cylume stick out the window, 3) the officer has our permission to enter our residence with those keys and clear out anyone that is not locked in the master bedroom (safe room), 4) we will be locked in this room and here's where it is located, the officer must contact dipatch over the radio and dispatch must tell us over the phone that the officer is outside the door to this room (hey, it doen't always happen, but it doesn't hurt to ask , 5) the cylume-keychain will have a key to this room for the officer to enter (this is another way for you to tell if it's an officer that is coming in the door) and the officer should loudly announce that he is an LEO and is entering before and during entry, 6) we are lawfully armed and anyone who attempts to enter this room by forceful entry or without announcing who they are will be considered a murderous intruder and that threat will be stopped. You have just made yourself, your loved ones AND the officers all knowledgable of the situation and taken into account each person's safety... Belive me, LEOs really appreciate that. They just want to make it home to be with their loved ones like the rest of us. Being in a "safe room" is your best bet for survival.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great plan!!!

Print this survival plan and use it as a drill with your family.

Panther:

Thanks for the great post.

I have already cleaned the gun and am going to take it to a range that one of my students is a member of. I will not try to fire it until it has been well-regulated.

I am going to explore the creation of a safe room for my house. Too bad we could'nt make the whole house safe, so that no one gets in.

As for the rope escape ladder...Another great Idea! This is a must for all who have bedrooms on the second story or higher. In my home the front bedrooms are only 10 feet off the ground. That is high enough for anyone to break an ankle in a jump and not be able to run to safety. The back bedroom is 15 feet above the ground. Having a rope escape ladder in every bedroom is not that great of an expense, considering that it may save your loved ones life if an intruder is inside your home or if a fire blocks the escape route to the doors.




------------------
Len Testa

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LenTesta:
Would you still try to use VSD by letting the intruder/s know that you have called the police and that they are on the way? If you do, they might believe you and high tail it out of there, eliminating the possibility of any more further damage to your house and property and possible injury to you and or your loved ones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Everything I own can be replaced... And as cold as this may sound, it would please me no end to have the local LEOs using my cylume-keys come into the house and confront the bastards. I wouldn't even mind if the perps tried to get away... knowing the "fleeing felon" rule for LEOs.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:

That plus an electronic alarm would make for you a safe[er] house, Len. Don't go overboard with the trip-wires, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why the whole concept of a safe room, to not go overboard. Think of the costs I'm suggesting... It's not that expensive. You can get a cell-phone for very reasonable rates now, say $15-20 per month and that allows you to use it for convenience and fun as well. Cylume... At a surplus store, you can get these for something like 4 for $1. Another $2-3 for a spare set of house keys. Everyone can use a few good flashlights. I recommend Sure-fire for the minis, 4-6 D-cell Maglites for the larger ones (the 6-d cell ones are the ones that the LEOs use and are decent, ummmmm... equalizers as well ~$20 each), and you can get a good rechargable spotlight for under $30. Then (if you're a relatively hand person), you can purchase an exterior-grade, solid-core door from HD for under $200... with all the hardware and a decent knob/lock included... well, maybe a touch more with the lock. We aren't talking any firearms yet, but get a good spray bottle and put ammonia in it. That's as good as pepper-spray in the eyes, but you have to practice to hit your target.

So we're talking under $300 and you haven't "advertised" to anyone. No one needs to know what your plan of action and tactics are... that defeats the purpose.

Panther,

Legal implications with ammonia?

Pretty bad if you can't sleep tight at night. Maybe the time will come for family members to take shifts for the night watch.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In some sections of some major cities find windows and doors barricaded with wrought-iron bars which are not of the ornamental variety.

That plus an electronic alarm would make for you a safe[er] house, Len. Don't go overboard with the trip-wires, though. Some neighbors get irate when awaken in the middle of the night by loud noises.

What do people who live in trailers and mobile homes do for safety? Seems door and window openings are rather fragile.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:

Legal implications with ammonia?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None... It was what was handy because of window cleaning... and it's not as nasty as other alternatives. Case in point: When Washingtoon, DC, in their finite wisdom banned all private CCW, they also banned the use and possession of chemical defense sprays. This had the unintended consequence that many women began carrying the little "one-time-use" cans of Easy-off(tm) oven cleaner. After a few would-be attackers were permanently injured (basically blinded), it became questionable for people to carry this common grocery store bought cleaner if stopped by the local constabulary. On the other hand, it's still a viable item to have in a DC home... Having a spray bottle with a window cleaner in your house is perfectly legal and if that is what you have to thwart an attacker... well... maybe the attacker should have been more careful in chosing his victim(s).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

We sleep very tightly and securely, thank you very much... In fact, I could see situations where I'd certainly sit up and watch over my loved ones, regardless of veiled attempts to paint any of these preparations and actions as paranoid. Depending on the circumstances, such as where you live and what's going on in your life, being prepared is only prudent. It's the same as walking around in Condition Yellow vs. Condition White. In Canna-sensei's forum there aren't hints of people being paranoid for being aware and prepared, why would you be any less aware and/or less prepared at home? (Rhetorical question... you shouldn't be.) The way my house currently is set-up is not important. The fact that we used to live in a "not-so-great"(tm) area, along with having had intruders multiple times at that residence, and toss in the fact that one of the residents of a different apartment seemed to, ummmmm, "attract" trouble at the strangest hours... well, you learn what you need to learn to keep your loved ones safe. 'Nuff said. After having those kinds of close calls, being careful and aware just carries over when you move to a better neighborhood. And then... one day... while you're away on some business... being prudent like that helps keep your family safe. Then you realize that even though things are much rarer in the "nice" neighborhoods... guess what? The bad guys have cars too. Soooo, yep, I sleep very well thanks.


[This message has been edited by Panther (edited December 04, 2000).]

To kinda-sorta bring this back to a VSD feel... Thought everyone would get a chuckle out of this one.

Good Joke!

I wonder what scared them off. The fact that he was nekkid, or that he had a gun.

Panther:
Everything you have done to prepare your safe room sounds great; except the ammonia.

Ammonia is much diluted in cleaners for household use. You must be really close to the person whom you intend to spray and make sure that you get it into the eyes, or it will not work. In most cases it is not concentrated enough to completely disable an enraged attacker. To make ammonia work as a weapon you must use concentrated ammonia, which is not easily purchased. If you do happen to be able to secure some concentrated ammonia, I would not recommend using it indoors unless you plan to wear a full-face respirator and make sure that everyone in your house has one and will wear it. You may spray enough ammonia around to make escaping your house impossible for you or your family if you do not have respirators. In addition, if the LEO's have to come inside they will be overcome with the fumes. I am sure that they will not appreciate being asphyxiated while trying to clear your house.

I would use some other type of spray that would be effective if it gets into the eyes or on the face, but has no lingering gaseous residue for me or any of my family to succumb to. Pepper spray has also been known to attack the friendly as well as the hostile, when sprayed indoors.


------------------
Len Testa

Man, Panther!
I did that!
But it was totally naked with a gun _and_ a sword!

Some of these sprays can turn a person extremely violent.

All you need is a little chlorine with the ammonia. I wonder if a Tupperware party would be an appropriate time to discuss common household chemicals in terms of self-defense. I remember women's hairspray made a beautiful flame thrower when I was a kid.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RA Miller:
Man, Panther!
I did that!
But it was totally naked with a gun _and_ a sword! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was it really a gun and a sword, Rory, or were you just happy to see them...?


student


Actually, this reminds me of the old Society For Creative Anachronism urban legend about the gentleman in full medieval dress garb walking back through the park after an SCA wedding or event.

Said gentle was approached by a local free-lance socialist, wishing to redistribute the gentle's wealth by means of a knife, thus:

"Give it up, man; I got 6" of cold steel."

The gentle flung back his cape, drew his dress sword, pointed it at yon varlet's throat, and calmly replied:

"See your six; raise you thirty."

He whose mighty 6" inches of steel was now a mere 6" of steel decided it was a fine time to become a track star....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LenTesta:

Panther:
Everything you have done to prepare your safe room sounds great; except the ammonia.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You point is quite correct. I personally don't use the ammonia in a spray bottle... I have, ahem, "other" things for self-defense. I just threw that out as a possibility for someone who doesn't have, ahem, "other" things for self-defense. Hopefully, folks (like you obviously have) will think about what is readily available to use and what the consequences of that use will be. I had a woman tell me she'd use her pepper-spray, but never own an awful, yucky, gun thingy! I challenged her to put me down with her pepper-spray... when she finally oblidged, I dodged the slow-moving and highly dispersed spray and tackled her anyway. She switched to a pepper-foam that shoots a little better and sticks to it's target... and decided that learning to shoot wasn't such a bad thing afterall. OTOH, I know a couple where she is hopelessly hoplophobic. I have never been able to convince her that her children will be safe if she teaches them about firearms and stores a pistol safely. But she got upto brown-belt in a local McKarate school and sees nothing wrong with having "kung-fu" swords laying around the house. Just that awful word, "gun"...

I mentioned the ammonia because I met a guy once who told me he stopped a bad guy with ammonia. Granted he didn't do it with a spray bottle... Evidently he heard someone break in to his house, got up and quickly looked for something... anything... he found a bottle of concentrated window cleaner he had been using. When he peeked over the stair-rail, in the moonlight he could see the bad guy starting up the steps. He had already opened the bottle and when he yelled out "hey you", the guy looked up in time to see the bottle being dumped on his face! I don't know how true that story is, but that's what the guy told me happened. I do know he was broken into...

Personally, I wouldn't bet my or my loved one's lives on chemical sprays.



[This message has been edited by Panther (edited December 05, 2000).]

Sorry to keep going on this but this thread has been on my mind quite a bit. I have been wondering if I am being completely naive about this happening to me or whether this differences are based on society and cultural surroundings.

We talked about it during class tonight and the question was raised the same way Len phrased in during the first thread.

Quote:
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Will VSD work when you come face to face with an intuder in your home?
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Everyone agreed on their response and although there were only 5 of us tonight, I thought we represented the general population fairly well. This was not scientific by any stretch of the imagination. The overall response was yes, VSD would be required to initally set the stage and provide you with much needed info for what comes next. This next action being your decision on how to best handle the situation.

So we went into the weapons and safe room scenario and again, all had the same situation whereby neither was present in our homes. Didn't leave much else to discuss other than it must be a cultural or society demand that makes the differences in our responses to this thread.

We live in a small capital city in Canada (Edmonton) whereby the crime statistics are nowhere near as dramatic as some parts of the US or even Canada for that matter. Living in Canada also means that we are much more restricted in eyes of the law as far as personal weapons are concerned. Please don't misunderstand this statement and assume that I am saying Canada is better than the US. I am not implying that at all. Nor do I believe that. My point is that there are some places (in Canada and the US) that are generally safer to live in and therefore that culture dictates the amount of personal protection I need as a member of that society to protect my person and property.

I therefore, don't feel like I need to go to the next step in personal protection as the threat is not driving me there. Shoot first and ask questions later just doesn't seem like a logical (or legal) choice in my situation.

Does this make sense or am I missing something here?



[This message has been edited by Randy Pelletier (edited December 07, 2000).]