Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:42 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Brockton, MA, USA
Before I begin I would like to say that Fedele Cacia's katas have never looked better. Keep up the hard work Fedele.

And Also...THANKS to Kevin Mackie for joining the Brockton Uechi-ryu Karate Academy
to continue your training. As soon as you complete your next promotional requirements we would love to have you as an Instructor at the BUKA!

<font color="blue">NOW TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD</font>

<font color="red">VSD AND TC</font>

How much contradiction is this?

I have been studying the TC methods with Van-sense for almost one year (only missed 1 held class due to illness) now and I have become a much better practitioner because of it.

TC is not just movements. It is a mentality.
One that contradicts the other part of my Uechi-ryu training and teaching which is verbal self-defense.

I have been juggling these two aspects of confrontation resolution for quite some time now. One minute I am "the ferocious tiger comming down from the mountain" (thanks Sense Bethoney) and the next I am mister talker.

It is difficult to maintain a mentality (mindset), that has it's roots deeply imbedded in the primal brain, while you are trying to talk to a really messed up individual who is bent on taking a peice of flesh from you.

Talk is for "those people" who have no idea how to fight or defend themselves by force.
Talking should not be done by a karateka who has been training for 21 years and has been learning to develop the mindset of an animal when defending against an inconsiderate thug who is just preying on the smaller, weaker members of society.

So how to handle this paradox? Common sense, plain and simple.

Character has a lot to do with whether a person will fight or talk. You talk the talk you may have to walk the walk. (forgive me)

Some are so thick skinned that any insult, including a racist remark, toward them would not even trigger a frown let alone cause them to strike out. Some are so thinned skin that if you were to tell them that they smell bad after a workout in the dojo, they would rip your lips off.

Just like the physical part of your training, where you learn to size up your opponent when he and you are squaring off, you must size up your antagonizer when he is speaking crap to you. Is he the type that will back down from the altercation by verbal defense? Or, is he the type who will be aggravated even more by what you are spewing back at him?

One must prepare themselves for both of these adversaries. You must talk in some cases and you must fight in others.

The unique individual is the one who knows which is which.

Can you determine which individual you are dealing with?


------------------
Len Testa

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited February 13, 2001).]for name spelling error.

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited March 01, 2001).]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:01 pm 
<font color=green>Len, replace the square brackets wirh angle brackets </font]

TC, Mindset,...

Also to add to your post, Len, aging has a lot to do with it. I think most of us mellow-out as the fall of our years approaches. Some, when they are young, don't know enough about giving themselves [and others] space.

<font color="blue"> Thanks Allen I was in a hurry</font> Len

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited February 13, 2001).]


Top
  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2001 12:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2073
Location: Boston, MA
Len,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>TC is not just movements. It is a mentality.
One that contradicts the other part of my Uechi-ryu training and teaching which is verbal self-defense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure it has to be. It's all about knowing oneself.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Just like the physical part of your training, where you learn to size up your opponent when he and you are squaring off, you must size up your antagonizer when he is speaking crap to you. Is he the type that will back down from the altercation by verbal defense? Or, is he the type who will be aggravated even more by what you are spewing back at him?


I misjudged enough to know not think I have someone pegged. I may have an suspicion but ultimately I could be wrong. So, better I understand what I am willing to put up with, or not. Basically, if ain't physical or coming to it, I don't bother and walk away. However, I maintain the aura (based on my mindset) that if they want to push it then they have a fight on their hands.

david


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2001 2:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Brockton, MA, USA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
So, better I understand what I am willing to put up with, or not.

Good point David

Sometimes I can put up with a lot of crap that is slung at me. It does not make me want to resort to violence, as long as I am sure that there is no possibility of physical harm inflicted upon me.

In the past there have been times when I have been really angry at everything that did not go right since I got out of bed. I wouldn’t exactly look for trouble, but if someone crossed my path wrong, watch out. I could not wait to vent on this person.

I have been fortunate enough to have never run into the person who would provoke me enough while I was in this state of mind.

Now, with the mentality that I am programming in the TC Class, I have to really dig deep when I am agitated. I need to be able to unleash the hidden tiger if I can sense that imminent harm is coming my way.
I have to learn to fend off insults to me and to my loved ones, if I believe that no physical harm will come from the garbage mouthed person.

I have thick skin when it comes to being insulted. It is not that I cannot comprehend that I am being insulted; it is not in my mental makeup to let myself get annoyed by anything verbal.

Now if the insult is directed at a loved one, and rude gestures accompany the insult, should I resort to physical retaliation? There was no physical harm done to my loved one, but what about honor? Should I unleash the TC Tiger ™ when my wife or daughter is leered at in my presence? Alternatively, should I use VSD? I am not the greatest literary genius when it comes to retorting a witty response. It may be easier to strike out to make the person stop their public humiliation than it is to redirect the insult. But is it justified?
Do I have the legal right to knock someone out in this case?

I believe the answer from a legal perspective would be, no. But from a moral perception it may be the only way to eliminate the embarrassment the situation has become to my loved ones and me.

I am sure of one thing though. The TC Tiger ™ is definitely ready to make an appearance if I am sure that my loved ones or I will be put in danger of physical harm.



------------------
Len Testa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2001 2:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Brockton, MA, USA
This is reposted from the Self-Defense Realities forum topic The Odds becaus eI believe it can fit into this topic also.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Original post by Sensei GEM
My brother John and I owned and managed a large restaurant/nightclub complex in Brockton for four years back in the 70s. John and I would take turns handling the door. On the nights John was on, there was a far higher incident of him getting into fights than on the nights I was on!
My brother's level of tolerance was far less than mine. In his mind, his fights were "necessary" and unavoidable. I don't know the reason why my nights were less violent. . . perhaps because I tended to sense trouble and would react in a manner that confused/disoriented the offending party, long enough for me to get him/her out of the building before the person realized what was happening.

Each of us can describe situations where a fight was "unavoidable". My point is that given the same situation, ten people facing this "unavoidable" senario would probably result in ten different ending to the story.

Perhaps we should spend as much time learning to deal with "unavoidable" senerios, making them "avoidable", as we do practicing our punches and kicks!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2001 4:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Brockton, MA, USA
And there are no comments??? HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Avoidable fights = VSD

Unavoidable fights = TC

Nuff said?

------------------
Len Testa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2001 4:27 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 5985
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Len:

Perhaps martial artist believe that dealing with a situation in any way other than using their fighting skills is "unmanly". Is there a stigma associated with VSD?

I know we talk about how to walk away from a fight, but how many of us really believe this is an option?

We all hear the war stories about the "big fights" but seldom hear people bragging about walking away from a challenge while listening to the bad guys' taunts and verbal abuse. Something inside us, won't let us believe that we really won the battle by avoiding the fight!

------------------
GEM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2001 7:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 2813
Location: Massachusetts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:

Perhaps martial artist believe that dealing with a situation in any way other than using their fighting skills is "unmanly". Is there a stigma associated with VSD?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can call me names all day and all night long... doesn't bother me. Getting into it is a last resort that can be a painful lesson, but taunts while perhaps angering can be easier to recover from.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know we talk about how to walk away from a fight, but how many of us really believe this is an option?

We all hear the war stories about the "big fights" but seldom hear people bragging about walking away from a challenge while listening to the bad guys' taunts and verbal abuse. Something inside us, won't let us believe that we really won the battle by avoiding the fight!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got plenty of tales of walking away. They aren't too exciting... some name-calling, verbal slights, whatever and the situation is such that it's easy, convenient and/or possible to remove myself and/or the people I'm with from the situation. Over... done... For every altercation I've ever been in, there have been at least a dozen which I walked away from. I've been called just about everything imaginable. Over the years, I've realized that those words only hurt if I give them credibility. Sooooo, I now figure that anyone who would start throwing around names at me has zero credibility in my mind.

I have to tell you though... I often wonder about people that have nothing but "war stories" and won't ever admit to walking away. I wonder if they've just been lucky enough to only go up against people that they have at a disadvantage (therefore always winning easily without harm to themself) or if they perhaps are full of hot air, having never actually been in an altercation where they took some serious damage... Most people (but not necessarily all people) that I know who've been in a serious street altercation will do everything in their power to avoid getting into another one. That almost insures their use of VSD in some fashion.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2001 1:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Brockton, MA, USA
Yes Sensei, I believe there may be a stigma associated with VSD. Some might think that martial artists do not even want to talk about it so why would they want to use it?

Panther and I, are probably not the only people who do not let name calling and verbal insults bother us to the point of striking out. I know there are many martial artists who will take a lot of BS and still wont attack or use physical self-defense unless they are attacked first. However, some people cannot stand to be humiliated this way in public, especially if their children or family is witnessing the event.
I feel that it is a lowering of ones self-esteem to play the game, and start slinging verbal barbs back at that person. By doing so, you are bringing your self down to the other persons level.
It is easier to escalate the fight by saying "If you don't stop your vulgar language, I will shut you up myself". This is what the antagonist wants. He is looking for a fight. He wants to push all the right buttons to make you lose your cool.

Some of us can shake off the vulgarities and be happy that we have walked away without resorting to violence. Some cannot.

We can teach the meek to defend themselves by karate training. However, this question remains to be answered. <font color="blue">Can we teach the thin skinned expert martial artist to de-escalate the confrontation no matter how hard the aggressor is trying to provoke it?</font>
I believe we must try.

I was not always willing to use VSD. I learned how to do this a long time ago. I agree with what Allen stated previously in this thread. The older you get the mellower you get.

When I was 28, I received my Shodan. For the next two or three years I was not going to take any BS from anybody. If someone cut me off in traffic, I was going to chase that person down and make him pull over so I could teach him a lesson. This happened twice and both times the other person fled without pulling over. As I matured, I read many news stories concerning road rage and parental rage. I had no idea that I was provoking an incident that might cost me my life. I was invincible. I began to see that I was wrong for maintaining that kind of attitude.

Of course back then we did not have this type of media (internet with forums) where I could read about the experiences of other martial artists in real life situations.

Class time is mostly used for developing the body and movements associated with physical defense. There is not much time in the dojo for the teaching of VSD and talk.

It is too bad that the developing younger students of Uechi-ryu (and other styles) who look to the Seniors for their physical training, are not willing to use this forum.

And the same can be said of the Seniors, who now have a venue to teach this now important part of self-defense. If it cannot be done in the dojo, it should be done here in the VSD Forum.







------------------
Len Testa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2001 2:23 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 5985
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Len:

You are doing a great job presenting a most difficult subject. I remember how our original moderator was attacked for presenting a pacifist point of view. In the "old" days, a student would have been laughed at for walking away from a conflict. Early martial art attitude taught that anything other than totally wasting your opponent was defeat.

The Forums have provided an education for us all, forcing us to:

1. Understand that beating up an opponent is not a simple situation. The victor might just find himself in jail or faced with a 50k legal bill following the fight.

2. Understand that being the toughest dude in the dojo is no assurance you will survive in your next street encounter.

3. Understand that there is no shame in walking away without throwing a punch or kick.

4. Understand that their are no rules in a street fight, no official/sensei to stop the action when you decide you should have walked away instead of escalating the action.

5. Understand when you must fight. . . Then fight like a Tiger!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2001 4:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 2813
Location: Massachusetts
Testa-sempai, IMNSHO, one of the reasons this forum doesn't get as much use as it should, is (as previously stated) the "war stories" don't have any "war" in them and are pretty unexciting. Everyone loves to hear about how someone took on the biggest, baddest SOB and did the XYZZY technique to walk away leaving a devastated opponent. (Again, as previously stated) Those who've "been there, done that" are exactly the ones who tend to use VSD the most later on. Image IOW, if you've kicked @$$ before and gotten your own @$$ kicked before, you know all the particulars and don't need to get into another confrontation to find out that you can either kick @$$ or get your @$$ kicked! Image

GEM-sensei, I'm not sure what "old days" you're referring to. I don't have nearly the years or experience of the Masters on these forums, but ~19-20 years ago, when I tested for Dan rank, there was a segment of the testing where I was put through some serious verbal interviews trying to get me angry enough to "go physical". Lose your cool and fail the test... it was part of the process. We were taught from day one that there was an extra responsibility in gaining the knowledge of our arts. We would train in classes using some scenerio set-ups (I posted about them once when scenerio drills were a topic on one of the forums), someone in the group was given the role of antagonist, others the roles of accomplice, others no roles (by-standers)... The antagonist knew who the target was (one of the "by-standers" ended up as a defender), but the end wasn't known to the "defender"... It could be that the antagonist was just a loudmouth that could be appeased or it might escalate into an actual attack which the defender needed to respond to. The defender's job was to make the right choices... meaning don't assault the loudmouth, try different methods for "talking your way out of it" (reasoning, bluffing, commiserating, whatever... and we didn't even know to call it "VSD", just "talking your way through the situation") or alternately be prepared if the escalation to physical violence was imminent... It was a part of training at least once a month, usually more often. (starting at about the go-kyu level) I've never seen any other dojo/dojang/school do that at all... But it helped establish what Shihan called "the proper Black-belt attitude". (There was more to that attitude, but this was an integral part.) Do you think this type of scenerio training would be helpful in a Uechi-ryu dojo? (Realizing that there are lots of folks who wouldn't like taking the time away from punching and kicking... Image )


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2001 4:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29977
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
If someone cut me off in traffic, I was going to chase that person down and make him pull over so I could teach him a lesson.


You'd be surprised, Len, how many of us reading this have been guilty of the same.

One thing that might help in refraining from such idiocy, is to seriously ponder on the likely chance that innocent men, women , and children on the highway, could be seriously hurt or even killed by such chase and engagement on a public highway.

Imagine what would happen, and it does often,if someone enraged and speeding a chase, driving a truck,SUV,or other large vehicle, were to lose control and smash into a station wagon full of kids.

Or if bullets started to fly across traffic lanes.

As to the reason why not too many people take to VSD, Len, it might be because verbal modulations under an emotionally highjacked state is dicey at best.

Some time is much better to say nothing and just walk away..or if appropriate..use a penetrating stare.

Problem is that I have seen on occasion people talk themselves into a fight instead of defusing one. Once the tongue begins to wag under the "fight or flight" response, all good intentions go to hell quickly.

I am not suggesting we do away with programming VSD, but, as I have argued in the past, how do we make it work when in the throes of the chemical cocktail some of us cannot breathe let alone talk. I know..practice..practice.

------------------
Van Canna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2001 1:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Brockton, MA, USA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Problem is that I have seen on occasion people talk themselves into a fight instead of defusing one.


I have seen this many times myself Van, and I was almost guilty of the very same thing.

I was in one confrontation where I did, unintentionally, escalate the situation because of the "chemical cocktail." Add in to the mix that I was determined to prove that I was being confronted for an unjust reason and secretly wanted to test my karate training.

Just before the altercation turned violent, I began to try to diffuse it. I was not aware of VSD training or how to use de-escalation methods of diffusing arguments. I knew I was supposed to be the expert, because of my MA training, and that made me think that I was not going to let it lead to violence unless I was attacked. It was very hard to calm the nerves and think rationally when your legs are shaking and your hands are clenching into fists. Eventually he backed down and it did not come to blows. I walked away feeling both relief that I escaped a possible injurious adventure, and disappointed that I wanted to provoke a fight.


------------------
Len Testa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:34 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 5985
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Good points Van. . . Although talking can get one in trouble, so to, can ignoring a violent person.

One becomes better at VSD or self defense with practice. I took lots of verbal abuse at my nightclub and learned over time how to deal with it. I also learned when the only answer was to call the police and let them deal with it. With time, one learns when to talk and when to shut up and when to act.

Some police officers are better at defusing situations than others. Given that every encounter could be violent and potentially fatal, one must praise any officer who takes the time to try and diffuse rather than to act with immediate and effective force.

Those of us in the martial arts should consider VSD an important part of the force continuum. Part of our program should be spend exploring, discussing and participating in role playing activities.

We spend so much time on physical techniques and no time learning the signals of engagement. We train ourselves to turn our self-defense off and on, whereas real life calls for infinite levels of involvement. Our dojo should recognize this fact and modify our curriculum to include courses in VSD and scenario training.

------------------
GEM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 2813
Location: Massachusetts
From a VSD, a training regimen AND as a new Uechi-ka... I'm impressed at the direction this discussion has been taken in by Uechi-ryu's most Senior people.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group