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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2001 9:22 pm 
<center>Learn the signals of [dis]engagement.

practice,practice,practice...</center>

Words from up above from both Van and from George. To do scenario training would be like jabbing a stick into a cage to see how pissed off you can make him then try to pet him on the top of the head.

And the practice part where Van talks about road rage. I think that is a good place to start without poking the tiger because he has already come to you.

It's was once SO tough to not get p!ssed off in traffic.

For years I had trouble dealing with someone shooting me the bone, and in traffic it was often a FU2 Buddy for that and when someone cut me out. We all forget just how dangerous the roadway is. We drive at the speed limit and sometimes beyond just to keep up with traffic and it can be all over in an instant even for the most careful of us; that's why they call them "accidents."

In the beginning it was so degrading to face away and not return the single fingered signal. In the beginning it was so AWFUL to back down! One feels so cowardly and ashamed of himself and a little bit of a failure for backing down, and although to get into it one wants to, wants to, wants to, one resists every single gut-wrenching urge to even as the steamy streaming provoking sentence YFAH!YGDMFCSSOFBWTIGMHOYYCS want to blare out so articulate you just know if he can't hear you he will read your lips as they have formed those sounds so perfectly. But once past the withdrawal stages of resisting the urge to, and it feels akin to giving up smokes, even tempting to return to formerly natural tendencies, this failure feeling is replaced reasonably rapidly by lighter feelings of success because you realize you are the smart one for not letting the red-hot coals flare into a full-fledged flaming furnace of fire.

The overwhelming words which circle around my head when someone tries to start it, and maybe a good start for others when tempted to get ticked-off is
<center>
<FONT COLOR=RED SIZE=+1>"You're not worth it!"</FONT></center>



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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2001 12:13 am 
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Posts: 875
Great advice Allen-san.

I don't know if it's because I'm female or just not as prone to cussing people out on the road but I only got half of your acronym - looks like a good one! Actually - I have a pretty good one in Spanish - maybe I just developed that part of my emotional response mechanism overseas!

Anyway - "You're not worth it" is one incredible method if you can talk yourself into it. Personally I just don't have as much trouble with the road incidents getting to me as bad or as often as it seems to with guys - (or maybe we just drive better here in the South Image ) but stress is not only an instrument to further destruction - it kills - in more ways than one.

And after going through a very traumatic 48 hours watching my father-in-law suffer through an emergency quadruple bypass after he's done all the right things - good diet, exercise, quit smoking 27 years ago, etc. etc. - the only thing he has not cut out is a very high stress level...

It almost killed him.

Is getting p***ed off in the car so often worth a heart attack in a few years?

Not for me.

They're not worth it.


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2001 1:30 am 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I don't know if it's because I'm female
Here ya go. I don't know! Youse women seem to be able to get away with everything these days. If a man said something to that affect about women, he'd be pigeonholed as being sexist. Image

[Lori] "Where's that Chain'saw!"

I suspect the "WTIGMHOY" part may be the part you are having trouble with.

That riposte was on the side of not being the on starting end if the road rage.
<hr>
This one starts with the self being the instigator. Someone cuts in front of you on a fast-movig highway or is driving under the speed limit on a back road. Your anger immediately flares up and you can feel the blood rush up your neck, up into your face, temples, and ears. You say out loud "[a long chain of expletives]" and you think to yourself he did that to ME! I'm gonna get him NOW! and the reaction is action on your part and you do what they do when in road rage.

Here's the corker. You have worked yourself up for nothing overone of the above because he may be entirely oblivious to the whole thing. Get po'd at th one who cut you out and want to ram him? Maybe he made a careless error in judgement and didn't even see you; maybe he still doesn't. And you get worked up for what? My take is that if you assume the stance in what occurred was NOT against you, whether it was or wasn't, the fuse has a good chance of extinguishing itself. And if it was and the silly sh!t tries something else funny, you have already given yourselfe adequate personal space to cool down and remain that way. Having THAT frame of mind, YOU are in control of the entire situation (that's what backing down is -- being in control) unless he goes ballistic.



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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:39 am 
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Posts: 1070
Lori:

Maybe it's because I'm male....

But I think I understand Allen's acronym.

Translated and put in language allowed by the FCC:
YFAH! =
"You sexually active end of the alimentary canal!"

YGDMFCSSOFB =
"You can best be described as accursed by the Almighty, with overt Oedipal tendencies, and the fellating runt of the sexually active mother of the litter."

WTIGMHOYYCS =
"Wait 'til I get my hands on you, you oral sodomist."

Of course, I could be wrong.

student

[This message has been edited by student (edited February 21, 2001).]


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2001 4:04 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
One becomes better at VSD or self defense with practice


No argument there Sensei. But where is the average karate person to get the "right practice" ? If one works as a bouncer, bartender,police officer,correctional officer etc., it is easy to get the right practice under fairly "realistic" conditions.

Well, sort of..because in the above situations one will find himself in his own, somewhat protected environment with available back up.

So the person's body alarm reactions will not be as extreme as an isolated encounter in a parking lot at three AM. Big difference!

VSD scenarios in the Dojo? Yes , useful, but only up to a point. It is not the same as practice against real lonesome, bewildering, mind numbing experiences.

And then it is matter of personal temperament. Some people may give the impression of doing well under controlled scenarios, but in the real thing, they act totally different in keeping with their genetic make up.

The way one's tongue wags under the kick of the cocktail, will give the assailant a perception of "aggressive response" _ " submissive response" __ or "noncommittal response"

All three are fraught with danger with individual pros and cons. Each response mode, along with tell tale body language, can result in either defusing or triggering/escalating violence.

Pretty tough calls to make__ out on the mean streets sometimes.

Pacifism can trigger unspeakable violence in some sick, distorted minds.

Mas Ayoob explains that criminals have twisted values, they consider normal people as their natural prey and resent any incursion on what they consider their God-given right to attack them.

When they perceive an ineffectual attempt to thwart them ..possibly by pacifistic language and or demeanor, they fly into a vengeful rage.

The VSD balance is a very precarious one, not ineffective, but not that easy to manipulate under extreme stress, and prone to many tactical errors.

Care to analyze the response modes as above?




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Van Canna


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2001 12:27 pm 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Pacifism can trigger unspeakable violence in some sick, distorted minds.
To me, pacifism, or appeasement is stupid.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
The way one's tongue wags under the kick of the cocktail, will give the assailant a perception of "aggressive response" _ " submissive response" __ or "noncommittal response"
Not sure what category the following comes under, but I once defused a situation by saying “Why are you so p!ssed off at me for?” right as soon as the interview began. It wasn’t non-committal because I was very focused, yet [I think ] my presentation was both non-aggressive and non submissive

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Mas Ayoob explains that criminals have twisted values, they consider normal people as their natural prey and resent any incursion on what they consider their God-given right to attack them.
In Uechi-ryu karate, we learn how to deflect a strike. We must also learn to deflect the attitude rather than meeting it head-on.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
The VSD balance is a very precarious one, not ineffective, but not that easy to manipulate under extreme stress, and prone to many tactical errors.
A fighting technique to be also mastered. If you are approached with a 100% committed attitude, you are going down, VSD or no, and you can’t wriggle out of it no matter what.


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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2001 12:14 pm 
Addendum for Len:

VSD is important to you, no? Would you be interested in designing, organizing, and hosing a seminar on VSD at your dojo?

I’m not sure if TC and VSD can mix, as they are vastly dissimilar. I say that because the curriculum of the TC helps one generate a strong instant response AFTER an attack is launched as it enters your space -- too late for talk, while VSD takes place well before that.

Just a thought, Len. Care to pick up on it?



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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:21 pm 
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VSD and TC must mix!

I realize I'm using specific terms for more general principles, but verbal skills/de-escalation and austere training/supreme physical skills each have their place.

In my observation, much of the brouhaha over VSD from the more physically-oriented among us was its limited use at the point when the conflict gets physical and the point of view of Dr. Elgin that virtually all conflicts could be resolved with VSD.

The physical proponents are correct; there are times when VSD will not de-escalate or cure a situation.

But Dr. Elgin was also correct, given that VSD used in an earlier intervention could deflect or defuse quite a lot.

I've never been in a fight in my adult life. Perhaps I'm just too scared; certainly there were times when I was very scared. But maybe I'm also naturally adept enough at talking or walking my way out of things. I don't know.

I have read and will re-read Suzanne's works. I will continue to listen to Tony Blauer's Cerebral Self-Defense tapes, especially re: Detect, De-escalate, Defend. I will continue to work out at the dojang.

It's a continuum, and people without both sets of skills are poorer for it.

student


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:33 pm 
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Location: Brockton, MA, USA
I agree with Student here Allen.
TC and VSD must be associated with each other.

If I allow my TC training to superceed all the rest I will become much more agressive than I should be.

Unless an ambush is made by an adversary, I will always try VSD first.

As for the VSD seminar at the BUKA, I think it is a wonderful Idea.

I will begin designing a course curriculum.

I can use all the help I can get so please if anyone has any Ideas please post them. If you do not wish to post them, please e-mail them to me at the above e-mail address under the NEW VSD Banner.

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Len Testa


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:50 pm 
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True. VSD and TC can work together.They simply must or we buy into more hassles than we can dream up.

But the Problem with VSD has and always will be that under extreme stress, say in a dark parking lot at three AM, no one around, lots of people will choke with fear and they'll be talking and thinking gibberish. And the "sputtering" will betray such fears and it will trigger an attack. There are of course exceptions to the rule.

Proponents of the concept, disagree, but don't tell us why is not so. They say it will work under extreme stress, they say you need practice, but don't tell you what kind of practice and how to get it. And if they think the practice is the corporate world, or the daily grind, they are seriously missing the boat.

I suppose any practice is better than none,Dojo scenarios help but they are not real enough for me. You will be in an extreme mental high-jack state when three punks approach you and your wife in a dark parking lot and ask her to lift up her skirt.

And don't think that this has not happened to some of us.

Let's see what comes out of your mouth then.

VSD good? Sure, but it will get you killed sometimes when you have to fight, not waste your time talking and allow the enemy to gain a tactical advantage.

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Van Canna


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2001 6:02 am 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
VSD good? Sure, but it will get you killed sometimes when you have to fight, not waste your time talking and allow the enemy to gain a tactical advantage.
This is common sense. VSD is terminology for trying to bullsh!t your way out of a fight, but at some point it is better to shut the mouth and focus on what's coming. However what I was thinking of with my prior post is that somehow TC training and VSD training don't mix together -- To me, anyway.

Also, someone imposing their VSD on another doing TC would only serve as a point of aggrivation, which is another reason I say TC and VSD don't mix. Call me on it if you will.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I've never been in a fight in my adult life.
Smart man. 200# behind a fist hurts a lot more than 100# behind a fist.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2001 12:26 am 
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Before even thinking of applying VSD, you have to sense the "nature of the enemy" and the nature of what you are up against.

If you fail in your perception of the threat, you are dead meat after the lying on the immolation slab of your own volition.

When you are in a street fight nowadays, chances are it will be with multiple assailants, and or a spaced out addict whose impaired perception drives him to violence.

If you are cut off from the pack to be robbed for example, your handing over of a few tens in your pocket and your halting attempts to appease [ VSD] the thug , might only anger the punk and set him off on a killing rampage. Read the newspapers.

VSD can flag or can be perceived to flag weakness and submission on your part if you don't project self assurance and "vocal control" with the right intonation and body language.

Punks bent on attack, get their jollies out of seeing you sweat and go to pieces in fear.

Sometimes the more [ longer] you talk,the weaker your resolve to take decisive action, and you end up in the slaughterhouse.

When I was attacked by a dozen armed punks [ knives, sticks and stones] in a foreign country, I remember trying to "talk" my way out..but in a matter of a few seconds, I realized that if I kept talking I would be fully encircled and set up for the kill.

so I exploded in animal fury severely injuring a few of them, while blowing a hole to safety. They were totally stunned by my response.

There is a time to talk and a time to explode in countervailing force.

Question is how do you reconcile the two without becoming confused and stunned by the event under the fear of the moment. The longer you hesitate, the deeper your grave is being dug in some local cemetery.

Am I against VSD? No, but "caveat emptor"


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:38 pm 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Question is how do you reconcile the two without becoming confused and stunned by the event under the fear of the moment. The longer you hesitate, the deeper your grave is being dug in some local cemetery.

A secret may be to learn how to "Explode with the count" because if one is to play the game of VSD he must be ready to go off like a hair-trigger at the instant the interview becomes an assault. How does one know when the interview is finished? A gut-feel helps, the talking abruptly ends or the conversation changes tact or they physically maneuver for advantage, esp. if they have been standing still, or their movement becomes abrupt 9watch it for them just trying to get you to flinch because as you are settling in from the flinch is a good opportunity for them to follow you in.
<hr>
Len,

You want to play it? This is a nasty one accompanied by the thought that some things are better left alone.

You've got to get about 4 mature guys who will sign a pct when it is all over that they will return to the same terms of friendship they were before the onset. The VDDee becomes surrounded in the front and on the side by three others who become excessively vile language in the most insulting and degrading fashion as humanly possible as well as be mean, not play mean but mean. Slapping, punching pushing and shoving (no spitting although sometimes unavoidable result of) and lots of taunting with complete disrespect torching upon sacred grounds of wife, girlfriend, mother and family personal attributes (want to make it real and get to someone, right?)

A big karate man can take the physical abuse, but can he survive the emotional trauma, or will he be reduced to a sack of mentally defeated rubble?

If you want to do a VSD thing, you have to be prepared to wantonly pull someone apart emotionally and kick their mental state while it is on the ground if only for five minutes as well as being prepared to go someplace you may never have been if you are the VSDee.

What I related is not to be taken lightly, rather it could even end up in a sporadic flurry of punches if the wrong combinations of buttons are pushed on the wrong person. Anything less is playing and a game not worth doing.

And as Van wrote, Empty the Caviar jar before you start.

[PS} Spell checkr is not working this AM

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 3:25 am 
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I would not recommend it. For the most part
it will create hard feelings among Dojo mates, and it will not really trigger the fear emotion you find on the street. But it will anger you and eat away at you in many ways too subtle to now envision.

If one or more of your Dojo mates uses certain very personal insults, you will be shocked that he could even have it in himself to think up such offensive language.

You will wonder if that's what he really thinks of you.

Basically I think that VSD scenarios in Dojo are next to useless. But that's my opinion.

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Van Canna


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 Post subject: TC and VSD???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:09 pm 
I go with Van's first sentence. Fact, with his entire riposte. I outlined what it would take to get to a closer level of awareness, definitely not a suggestion to do it.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera


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