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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2002 1:52 pm 
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Hi Panther,
How are you? It has been a while since we have conversed in this media.

Thank you for the encouragement. It is not too hard to point out what will potentially irritate someone after the post has been written. Image Writers should let their posts sit on their computer for a few hours before submitting them to these pages. A "cooling off" period so to speak. Then re-read the entire post again. Most often you will find that some phrases and statements will need to be altered because they may offend someone.

Lee wrote about a concern that everyone, who writes on the web, has when replying to topics that they feel strongly for or against; How do you show no emotion when words alone cannot set the tone of your voice? Many do not want to use capitals to express a raising of the tone but that is what a reader perceives the use of capitals to be. I like to capitalize a word to make it stand out to a reader. The correct syntax would be to italicize the word or make it bold faced type. Unfortunately not everyone knows how to do this. Some don’t want to take the time to learn or do not have the time to learn. To others it is a burden just writing the regular words without adding all those extra characters to their posts.

The previously written posts on this thread, that follow my example post, have been thoughtfully written. The subject is being discussed without any comments toward any of the writers. It helps to have a thick skin and not be too quick to jump on a writer for being hostile. At least until the writer has had a chance to explain the post in question. I think that Van’s response to Rory’s post was the best possible way to get information without causing a rift:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I didn’t know you better, Rory, your use of high caps in this context with your direct use of my name, could be interpreted as you shouting at me. Were you?
Of course not. You were just trying to make a point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said we couldn't learn how to discuss topics rationally without getting too emotional? Image


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Len


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2002 3:51 pm 
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Hello...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
It's the BEST answer. Less paperwork and you don't get sued, but not the answer.


I couldn't agree with you more and I don't recall anyone disagreeing with that position. However, that wasn't the original query being made by Canna-sensei. If you'll recall, his question specifically centered around one of those "mind-numbing street violence situations" where the perp just is not going to be placated. (You've already written about a perp that was calm and everything seemed fine and then BAM... just because he felt like that was the thing to do regardless... a good example of the mindset that Canna-sensei was referring to.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
...diplomacy can work just as well if you can place the doubt in the threats mind.


Darn tootin'! Image I have no problem walking away "with my belittled tail between my legs" and letting someone(s) feel like the Big Man in charge. Image I also don't have a problem making them wonder if they'd survive if they pushed it... whatever works to avoid going physical. As you know from experience, using VSD has many facets and which tool we choose out of the VSD toolbox is one of those delicate decisions that it takes time to learn and understand. Sometimes you can win with VSD by saying "sorry, let me buy you a drink", sometimes you can win with VSD by saying "I understand where you're coming from, let's talk about it some more" and sometimes you can win with VSD by saying "fine, who wants to die first?" I've used all those approaches successfully, but I don't recommend that just anyone jump in and try them. The decision on which approach to take is something that I don't know how to teach... for me, it's just been "intuition". (Yes, ladies... Us neandrethals have that too. Image ) And I've been in situations where there was just no talking my way out of it no matter how much I tried. It was that type of situation which Canna-sensei was referring with his original question/comments in the other thread.

I still feel like there should be some way to come to a mutual understanding based on having the same set of data & criteria to work with. If my position is incorrect, I want to know why so that I can take appropriate action to correct. In the previously mentioned thread, I saw an example of an inconsistency which I couldn't reconcile. I attempted to point out exactly why I felt there was an inconsistency and tried to be very specific and accurate in both terminology and phrasing without making personal attacks. I truly could not and can not fathom the opposite position and belief that was being claimed. It may be viewed as an attack for me to pick apart someone's position or belief in that instance, so I also pointed out the semantical descrepancies which I felt were being made. I even provided the proof/basis for my position as far as the semantics went. That consideration was called "wiggle room" and to be quite honest with you on this point, I ignored and never mentioned the fact that to me the characterization of my use of specific definitions as "wiggle room" to somehow get around things was insulting. A prime example of how things can be misconstrued. I ignored those feelings because I had enough respect for and felt comfortable enough with the people having the discussion that I was sure they wouldn't be that way.

I have to concede that I can understand us coming to different conclusions based on life-experiences. I still feel that if we discuss our positions keeping the facts and semantics in mind, we should be able to at least understand each other's positions. In that previous thread (and to this day) I still do not understand the inconsistencies that went along with taking a moral high-road of pacifism, not believing in any violence ever (that happening being a "moral failure"), and yet conceding the need for "violence" (a physical response) in some cases. I won't get into the semantical descrepancies, that horse has already been beaten to death in the previous thread, but I will point out again that I never had any personal problem with anyone on that thread, but truly wanted to understand how those contradictions could be reconciled.


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2002 7:32 pm 
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I believe Suzette was unable and unwilling to defend her position regarding pacifism. Physically defending herself was not the subject of this forum. Her expertise is highly specialized and one that I hoped could be appreciated by itself.

Naturally, most of us wouldn't go to a street brawl armed only with our VSD. Whether Suzette would or would not is a question that is private and concerns only her.

I looked at Suzette's knowledge in much the same way I view the gun handling ability of a good buddy. He is grossly overweight, in very poor health, a lousy golfer but. . . wow, can he handle a gun. . .

Now, when we go to the range for my lesson, should I start asking for advice or his opinion about unarmed self-defense methods? Or his views on health foods and exercise?

I keep my mouth shut and pick his brain regarding the highly specialized field he is an expert in.

We have 30+ forums to discuss the rest of the force continuum. On this one I envisioned a place where we might explore some of the non-physical options available to us before we resort to the big hammer.

Suzette may not have been the best person to introduce this subject. Many of us had a difficult time relating to the examples she and her friends used to describe VSD situations. I'd prefer that we use more real-life situations and except the fact that there will be times when you can't talk your way out of trouble. I'm a novice here though and simply will try to keep an open mind.

VSD is not a complete solution to conflicts. Neither is violence. The goal should be in recognizing when and how to use both.



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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2002 8:21 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I believe Suzette was unable and unwilling to defend her position regarding pacifism. Physically defending herself was not the subject of this forum.


But why, then ? Why introduce that subject when it bore no relevance to the VSD concepts, or did it? Don’t recall what led to the introduction of pacifism, can you repost the language continuum, as well as the remarks about “macho” that some may have found unpalatable? Good time to review the specific language and learn from it.

And if it did why would then there be an unwillingness to defend that position?

If there was no lesson to learn in it, why bring it up? Panther and I would like to know if we had missed some important lesson.

And why ignore the questions about the usefulness, or training methodology of VSD in mind numbing street violence? That is, after all, a very legit question.

But there could have been a reason for not addressing those queries, I don’t know. Image


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2002 10:06 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:

(snip)

Physically defending herself was not the subject of this forum. Her expertise is highly specialized and one that I hoped could be appreciated by itself.

I looked at Suzette's knowledge in much the same way I view the gun handling ability of a good buddy.

(snip)

I keep my mouth shut and pick his brain regarding the highly specialized field he is an expert in.

We have 30+ forums to discuss the rest of the force continuum. On this one I envisioned a place where we might explore some of the non-physical options available to us before we resort to the big hammer.

(snip)

VSD is not a complete solution to conflicts. Neither is violence. The goal should be in recognizing when and how to use both.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgive me Sensei...

If you look back at that old thread, you will see that I only jumped in after she made the statements about "violence is never justified --- it is not an option." I do not believe that I "attacked" her in any way for those statements. In fact, I was trying to "pick her brain" because I had a close friend that espoused the exact same beliefs. (It was really strange to hear them say the same things using the same language knowing that they'd never met, didn't know each other at all, and probably never would!) When this was brought back up, I hear through the grapevine that I had attacked her and was partially the cause of her moving on from the forums. I came to see what the fuss was about because I completely disagree with that assessment and categorically deny that assertion. Re-reading that previous thread has only strengthened my feelings that I didn't do anything wrong. Did I "turn up the heat" on her for what I see as inconsistencies? Perhaps. I did push the issue, but mainly to gain an understanding of my friend who I was also debating the same issue with. I found and still find that position to be very naieve and lacking a basis in reality. For anyone (like me) who has been in that kind of trouble before and who has gone through PTS with the time spent to "get over it", having someone tell you that any use of force is unjustified and that use of force is a moral failure... well... Perhaps that shows more of a lack of empathy than anything else... or perhaps after that fact is brought forth, to continue to evade the facts of a violent world show a lack of "VSD" regarding others feelings.

I apologize for causing Suzette to leave (if I did), but still maintain my position (or else I'd have to rehash too many things that I took a long time to deal with already).


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2002 10:52 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I apologize for causing Suzette to leave (if I did), but still maintain my position (or else I'd have to rehash too many things that I took a long time to deal with already).


Thes types of discussions, especially involving people who have had to deal with serious physical and emotional traumas,may not be in our best interest to continue, because they have a tendency of resurrecting dormant demons.

I know I have a tough time dealing with this "violence is never an option" when I picture the sight of my little cousin's brains splattered all over the walls and ceiling as witnessed by the parents, who still today get a call from the killer on the anniversary of the little girl's death saying: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
remember that you have another daughter


suggest we close this thread.



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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2002 12:14 am 
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Panther:

Sorry if you thought I was picking on you.. I didn't mean to. (I told you I was a novice at this VSD)

I was trying to make a point, but obviously failed. Lets close this thread and start off fresh with some new examples.

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