Here is Van's first post which focuses on the VSD issues, along with other, non-thread issues:
With my reply:> This was when he took on a very condescending tone and explained that ALL KaRAte moves were self defence moves and that when a real attack occurred your Kata will come out and allow you to protect yourself. <
*It should not surprise the readers of this forum. It is a delusive mindset perpetuated by dojo rats.
I’d like to know why so many duck this question I have asked for years:
Why did tomoyose sensei state, in relation to Uechi’s use for self defense, WAIT TEN YEARS, THEN MAYBE ?
Why would he have said that?
> So what is my issue? The student believed that “somehow” his Karate would just emerge and save him. He had no concept of the training required to achieve and maintain the presence of being to allow that to happen. He thought it was just something that happened when you did Karate. <
*Sure lots of things can happen doing karate, like ending up in a pine box.
So what is this Mushin thing anyway eh?
Well it could be a Chinese dish you can order at a Chinese restaurant.
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Van Canna
Followed by Van's post:Up to the teacher..
I'd prefer not to "diss" the concept, simply because I don't like it. There are quite a few good teachers who use Traditional terms to describe complex Western concepts.
We could call it TC, or BS, providing the teacher didn't mislead his/her students regarding what was being taught and what the student might expect in the way of results.
"Mushin" can be a simple way to describe a teaching method as Rick proposes. Teachers who claim Mushin has some sort of magical power are simply misleading their students.
On the other hand, how do we explain the successful defenses made by people who train this way and the unsuccessful defenses made by tough guys, trained by the very best modern experts, with most modern methods?
Guess a lot goes back to the individual, not the method.
I teach my methods using terms like "mushin" to describe a state of mind that was taught to me by Tomoyose. It is just another tool, super simplified for teaching purposes.
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GEM
Followed by my post:quote:
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I'd prefer not to "diss" the concept, simply because I don't like it. There are quite a few good teachers who use Traditional terms to describe complex Western concepts.
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I don’t see the concept being “dissed” but questioned and explored.
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Guess a lot goes back to the individual, not the method.
I teach my methods using terms like "mushin" to describe a state of mind that was taught to me by Tomoyose. It is just another tool, super simplified for teaching purposes.
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And that is a good explanation because it points to it _ as a "component part" of the defensive state of mind but not the "whole package"
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We could call it TC, or BS, providing the teacher didn't mislead his/her students regarding what was being taught and what the student might expect in the way of results.
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This brings a smile to my face, George. So how do we define BS in teaching? And how is a student to know when he being fed BS?
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Van Canna
Followed by Van's post:"dissed"
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Inflected Form(s): dissed; dis·sing
Etymology: perhaps short for disrespect
1 slang : to treat with disrespect or contempt : INSULT
2 slang : to find fault with : CRITICIZE
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So what is this Mushin thing anyway eh?
Well it could be a Chinese dish you can order at a Chinese restaurant.
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_________________
GEM
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So what is this Mushin thing anyway eh?
Well it could be a Chinese dish you can order at a Chinese restaurant.
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Just a joke my friend.
And my way to stimulate controversy and traffic. But you know that.
BTW, I unfortunately misplaced Tomoyose sensei's address.
Can you email it to me? I'd like to ask him his reasons for the statement he made
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Self-defense? Wait ten years, then maybe.
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Thanks.
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Van Canna
09 Feb 2004 13:34
Van Canna
Joined: 11 Mar 1999
Posts: 8219
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On the other hand, how do we explain the successful defenses made by people who train this way and the unsuccessful defenses made by tough guys, trained by the very best modern experts, with most modern methods?
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Very good question.
One that can be answered with another, emerging from a post by Darren
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I must state here however that there are many many, many more violent encounters in which people survived that had no training (be it traditional or modern combatives) than there are those who do train.
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Why did this happen?
Rick provides one of the answers
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the bottom line is that you are responding with what has been ingrained. If that is based on poor training then that is what you are expecting to emerge. If your training has been well direct, just as Darren says can be done for all traditional martial arts, then that is what will emerge.
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Another answer is __ it depends on who and what we are, genetically, then on the “how” and on the “When” and the nature of the threat and the enemy.
Mushin is a sound concept, if properly “primed” as Rick opines.
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Van Canna
Followed by my post:
followed by Van's response:Aside from all this We have different forums so that subjects can be approached from different perspectives.
Lots of martial artist use traditional terms to teach. Our objective is to provide a forum for those people as well as those who only wish to discuss topics from a Western scientific mindset.
By having different forums, we are not making any value judgements as to which method is best. We are just trying to give everyone an opportunity to discuss the way they train, where others are respectful and understanding.
I have a lot more to say on this subject, but must run for a meeting.... As Panther says.... "be good to one another"!
PS: Van, I know you were joking and I know this is you and actually, I get a laugh out of a lot of your barbs. But, the side of me that oversees 20+ forums must try to read comments the way everyone else reads them. Most of these people don't know you and may not appreciate the fact that you are pulling their leg. . . as I do. Hence, my request. . . Of course, you can privately pull my leg as much as you want. . .
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GEM
Most, if not all of the comments about my forum have been very positive. Not that I really care, I might add, because I do not intentionally offend or name anyone in my barbs.
A few of the ones who have made negative comments, usually have an axe to grind, and take the easy way out, by writing to you trying to get to me.
There was a time you went on record to say that you would not tolerate offensive email “behind someone’s back” and that if you received any of it you would post it on the web!
I know some of the whiners who have done this. Has your position changed? If not I’d love to see those “complaints” posted, so I can deal with them directly.
As I said before, if a moderator must worry about what will be “read” into every word he writes, his/her job would be unbearable, I suspect this a reason why not many volunteer for the tough job. Being on the front lines scares a lot of people.
What I try to do is to “jolt” so as to stimulate a response, because if I don’t, the stuff gets glossed over in mind torpor, words blurring, people remaining non-committal.
Disagreement, controversy, and differences of opinion are what life is all about, and what forums are for.
I see Moderating this forum as a management function that evaluates public beliefs and attitudes on a variety of subjects, [this forum dealing with the protection component,] then entailing the identifying of a “commonality” of interests and workable proven concepts as set forth by a tight Experts’ “coalition”, and then executing a “search and evaluate” program to bring about deeper understanding into something that takes such a big chunk out of our lives and upon which our very lives may depend on.
One example of this is the “back lot” experience by a couple of brothers.
VAN _________________