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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 7:44 pm 
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Per GEM-Shihan's request,

This is the start of a new topic about communication; verbal, non-verbal and the combining of the two.

For a little bit of history, I am a retired Sandan in a family branch of Shorin-ryu, a Certified Hypnotherapist and professional magician and stage hypnotist.

In lecturing to various groups (including the American College of Physicians & Surgeons national convention and other AMA groups), I have found that more and more, people arte becoming less and less aware of the total message that they are communicating via verbal and non-verbal means.

Incongruity between these two powerful modes of conveying messages has been and continues to be, a major problem between people.

On line, many of have noticed that what we type isn't always interpreted as what we MEAN.

In Total Communication, the body, the words and the vocal tone all need to be in line with each other for a congruent message to be delivered and, therefore, improve your chances of getting your idea across.

In future posts, I will cover some of the basics of NeuroLinguistic Programming (which is NOT a programming langauge) and how its development as a descriptive methodology has come to bring more and more awareness of out total message and how we communicate into the forebrains of the people exposed to it.

As a stage performer, I have to calculate every movement and nuance of my presentation to gain maximum effect on my audience and on my volunteers for the stage shows I do with hypnosis. It also is vitally important in a therapeutic practice, in teaching in a dojo or in communicative with a spouse, child or stranger.

I hope that what I have to share here and what you, the reader brings to this forum, will improve all of our skills in total communication.

With respect,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2002 11:14 pm 
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Well, I can see by the enormous amount of responses that I have received on this topic that it's going to be a barn-burner! Image

Let me see if I can get the ball rolling as I know many of you were busy getting ready for the annual tournament.

How does one develop congruity in communication? What IS congruity?

Congruity in communication menas that what your body and your mouth are saying conveys the same message.

In sarcasm, something many people have trouble with (and I'll explain one theory as to why in a sec), the TONE of what's said disagrees with the words being said. The phrase "Yeah, right!" can mean an agreement or act as one of the only times in any language where a double positive becomes a negative.

Representation Systems:

People represent their world through their senses. Some people are very visual - they make pictures in their heads of what is being discussed. Others are kinesthetic - they represent things via feeling them. Many MA people are highly kinesthetic, as are dancers.

Others are auditory. The auditory (hearing) sense is unusual in that some people are what are referred to as "auditory-tonal" - people who hear tones as opposed to words primarily, and "auditory-digital" people who hear the words and ignore the tone.

This is where many communications problems come into play. An auditory-digital person hears the words, "Yeah, right" and takes it for a statement of positive agreement, regardless of the tone used. The auditory-tonal person hears the tone and, to some extent, ignores the words. When they hear a sarcastic tone of voice, even if it's not aimed at them, they can become defensive and aggravated.

Both of these auditory types have their strong points and their weak points - points at which teachers have to meet them on to get the best results.

An auditory-tonal person will not learn well from a drill instructor-type Sensei. Why? Because the tone of the delivery, even if the WORDS are of praise, is anchored in a fear response.

An auditory-digital person, on the other hand, will hear a "Yeah, you're doing it right," delivered in a tired, slightly sarcastic tone, as confirmation of their being correct.

Complicated, isn't it?

Yes and no.

Learning to match your student's, partner's, co-worker's systems of communicating and internally expressing their world is a great way to improve your ability to get your message across.

I hope that this is a good starting point. If not - tell me and I'll take another angle.

Thanks for reading these ramblings.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 12:10 pm 
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Implicit in what Lee and Darren Laur are stating about NLP is the converse - when the body and the verbal language are not congruent, pay attention to the body!

Examplas Gratias:

Your significant other looks at you and says "Of course I love you, darling."

Your S.O.'s muscles are tightly clenched, almost trembling, arms crossed over the chest, hands in fists.

Are you now secure in the declaration of love you just heard? Hmmm?

student


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 3:43 pm 
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Great topic to discuss and I hope more will join in and give feedback and comments.

Understanding body language is a basic tool for understanding the verbal message. Old ways of telling if a person is lying was by detecting slight body movements when a person was speaking. However, this is not going to work in a forum atmosphere where words alone are all you have to determine if someone is sincere.



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Len


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 6:12 pm 
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Good thread. look forward to following it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 6:38 pm 
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TUtB:

Join In



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Len


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 6:47 pm 
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Len Testa-Sensei,

Thanks for joining in! Good points.

Troll - Don't just watch, contribute! All viewpoints are welcome.

Incongruity, as my good friend student points out is when the signals given are at odds with the words being spoken.

His example is an excellent one and useful from a number of angles. Take the clenched jaw and the folded arms from his example. Some people might believe that what she is really doing is holding back from a passionate embrace, while others would take it that she is angry about something and others would wonder if anything was wrong at all.

After all she SAID she loved you.

THAT'S an auditory-digital person's response to that scenario.

When dealing with an auditory digital individual, one has to understand that the tone that you say something in will be largely ignored. The body language that goes with the message will largely be ignored.

To an auditory-digital person, the WORDS are the only information that carries any serious meaning. While this may seem limiting, such a person has a better ability to remember what was said in a conversation, in detail, than any of the other types. Their ability to play back a conversation in their head, recall lyrics, speeches and even written documents (because they speak the words to themselves as they read them) is probably the best of the groups I have outlined. They have their strengths, as do we all.

Tomorrow: Auditory-tonal people, or The Song's The Thing!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 9:07 pm 
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I was thinking about the comment that you should attend to the physical messages. While it is true that you need to be aware of this, in my experience with working with agitated people, the keys to the conflict resolution lie in their choice of words.

Without jumping ahead to far, I think you are leading up to identifying which type of communicator you are dealing with by their language.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2002 10:43 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Troll Under the Bridge:
I was thinking about the comment that you should attend to the physical messages. While it is true that you need to be aware of this, in my experience with working with agitated people, the keys to the conflict resolution lie in their choice of words.

Without jumping ahead to far, I think you are leading up to identifying which type of communicator you are dealing with by their language.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Troll-sama,

You hit the nail right on the thumb! And no offense taken in any way, mon frere!

By listening to the language used by an agitated person it is often possible to match their system of communicating and defuse a situation.

Note the differences in the following statements:

"I am going to rip you a new one."
"I am going to make you scream!"
"I'm going to love watching you bleed!"
"Say Uncle!"

Each one represents a different style of communication and, therefore, a different way of dealing with their universe.

The first one is a kinesthetic - one who represents their universe through physical feelings, actions and emotions. These people literally FEEL their universe and talk in language that shows it.

The second is an auditory-tonal person. These are the people who listen to the song of the universe - and sometimes its screams. Their language resonates with words about tone, songs, music, sound effects and the like.

The third is a visual person. These people represent their universe by literally making pictures in their heads (in some cases, they literally can hallucinate a complete scene or object) and their language is filled with flashes of light, movies, color and shadow.

The last one is an auditory-digital. It's the WORDS that mean everything. What is said is far more important to this group than HOW something is said (auditory-tonal). Their use of precise language, pickyness over words and using words to elicit information is primary.

How do you deal with these people, separately or in groups? When they are angry or attacking? What do you do to keep them from attacking?

Tune in next tiome for more of "As the Word Turns!"

Sorry, that's my Pun-fu style showing...

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2002 12:01 am 
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Lee,

Great topic. Some of the body language you see in some people is triggered by other's body odor and bad breath, as they try to squirm out of range of the latest casserole meal. Image

Sorry, could not resist. No offense. Image

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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2002 4:27 pm 
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I re-registered from home. My original TUTB was from my work machine and I don't have the password.


I think one of the most difficult communicators is the auditory type. Often they seem to have prescripted the encounter any don't hear what you are trying to say. Things often need to be repeated and reflected back to them. In other words confirming for them that you are hearing their content.

I like the kinesthetic type, because you can subtly address their needs. "Lets walk outside and sort this out." Walking while your are talking gives them the underlying feedback they need and allows them to stay with the conversation.

Ever work with someone who makes sense on the mat, but seems to be scattered when you are just talking in the parking lot?

Am I on the right track?


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 6:37 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ed Thornbrugh:
I re-registered from home. My original TUTB was from my work machine and I don't have the password.


I think one of the most difficult communicators is the auditory type. Often they seem to have prescripted the encounter any don't hear what you are trying to say. Things often need to be repeated and reflected back to them. In other words confirming for them that you are hearing their content.

I like the kinesthetic type, because you can subtly address their needs. "Lets walk outside and sort this out." Walking while your are talking gives them the underlying feedback they need and allows them to stay with the conversation.

Ever work with someone who makes sense on the mat, but seems to be scattered when you are just talking in the parking lot?

Am I on the right track?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on target, Ed-sama and welcome to the thread.

You bring up an interesting point about someone being completely cogent on the mat, yet not really "with the program" once class is over and everyone is outside.

This brings up "situational congruity" and situational context issues.

Situational congruity is congruent communication, in a structured, specific environment. In a situation where there are well-set rules and expectations, even people with ill-developed social skills tend to function more effectively as communicators and as social animals.

Part of this is due to the setting itself - limited options, limited and well-defined expectations of behavior, etc. Not to mention the bonding that often takes place in a dojo situation.

Kinesthetes particularly, seem to have more difficulty in less structured situations, in my experience, possibly because of the increased bombardment of their senses and their having to take in so much more than in a structured milleau.

Expectations and rules in certain situations, especially for the person with a lesser level of social development, tend to improve their ability to interact with others. Because the lines of behavior are well marked, the person has these rules to use as a crutch, improving their confidence for dealing with social situations in such a structured context.

Think of it this way. Most of us have little trouble playing uke in a dojo lesson scenario. Many of us have little trouble playing tori in the same situation in demonstrating a specific waza or kata. This is because we are in a dojo and know that we will not be laughed at, derided or scoffed at.

On the street, there are few rules about what is and is not allowable and some people become overwhelmed by the enormity of the choices available to them. In drastic cases, this is called agoraphobia - fear of open spaces. To many sufferers of this disorder, the amount of sensory input is overwhelming. Agoraphobes come from all groups, but visual and kinesthetic people seem to make up the majority.

Learning to focus our attention and narrow our allowable input can increase our ability to cope with sensory overload, but it can also be limiting in a confrontation and can lead someone to get "blind-sided."

More on this later.

Strengths and weaknesses in all.

Keep em coming, folks!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 7:54 am 
Great thread , interesting thread I`m a very Kinesthetic person myself and am really interested in were this thread is going , Actually have been aware of my learning process for a while now and find it a huge benifit to be able to identify and convert lessons into my own brain type .

I feel im usually very aware of whats going on around me and can see situations long before they develop , but I am very of my nature to ellicit emotional responses in converstaion rather than being what i would term analytical conversation .

Do`s anyone have any example of how to engage the other communication types into a more constructive dialougue from a potential situation ? , I have to admit Id fall hook line and sinker to the lets walk and discuss this , assuming i ddint think they were calling me out Image ( to many westerns huh Image ) .

Great thread

Stryke


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 7:40 pm 
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Greetings,

Yes, I can agree with the NLP language patterns. Starts with the pace and lead which match the other's communications congruently. Aikido's enter and blend.

I also like the pattern interruptions that come when you communicate inconguently, you voice says one thing why your body says another. A nonverbal Aikido atemi. To deal with the mixed messages most people go internally (tansderivational search) to try and make them into one congruent message.

Also try the NLP "slight of mouth" pattern for a real interruption.

I also liked Jeoff Thompson's ideas of posing a question which get people to internal lokk for the answer. In the middle of the question, hit them.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

BTW: Lee, thanks for the invite. Nice forum.


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 9:03 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeiserL:
Greetings,

Yes, I can agree with the NLP language patterns. Starts with the pace and lead which match the other's communications congruently. Aikido's enter and blend.

I also like the pattern interruptions that come when you communicate inconguently, you voice says one thing why your body says another. A nonverbal Aikido atemi. To deal with the mixed messages most people go internally (tansderivational search) to try and make them into one congruent message.

Also try the NLP "slight of mouth" pattern for a real interruption.

I also liked Jeoff Thompson's ideas of posing a question which get people to internal lokk for the answer. In the middle of the question, hit them.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

BTW: Lee, thanks for the invite. Nice forum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lynn-sama,

Glad to see you took up my invitation to drop in and participate. I have enjoyed your posts on alt.hypnosis for some time and was unaware until recently that we shared an interest in the martial arts.

Thanks for the kind words. All credit goes to George Mattson-Shihan, the other moderators and participants. THEY are the ones who make this a great place to visit with old and new friends. Image

Many moons ago (about 1968), I studied Aikido for a couple of years with Isao Takahashi-Shihan (Rokudan) at the original Illinois Aikido Club over on Bryn Mawr Ave.

I am delighted to see you here and hope you will help out on this forum.

Sincerely,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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