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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 7:20 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeiserL:
Greetings,

Yes, I can agree with the NLP language patterns. Starts with the pace and lead which match the other's communications congruently. Aikido's enter and blend.

I also like the pattern interruptions that come when you communicate inconguently, you voice says one thing why your body says another. A nonverbal Aikido atemi. To deal with the mixed messages most people go internally (tansderivational search) to try and make them into one congruent message.

Also try the NLP "slight of mouth" pattern for a real interruption.

I also liked Jeoff Thompson's ideas of posing a question which get people to internal lokk for the answer. In the middle of the question, hit them.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

BTW: Lee, thanks for the invite. Nice forum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to have you aboard, Lynn-sama! Given that you have more than a little expertise in this area, could you expand for the rest of us on the sleight of mouth pattern? I am somewhat familiar with its premise, but you could probably describe it better than I could. So, would you be so kind as to give it a shot?

With apologies for being away for so long (it's been a little hectic here in the Windy City lately),

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 11:18 pm 
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Don't know if this is a good example, but:
We were doing a role play scenario. I was the thug. I said "give me your money."
He said "how much do you need?"
Then he hit me.

This is a person who will also growl and bark on the mat. A little distracting. A lot distracting if you are trying to put on a triangle choke and he is acting like a rabid dog trying to bite off your important parts.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:14 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Troll Under the Bridge:
Don't know if this is a good example, but:
We were doing a role play scenario. I was the thug. I said "give me your money."
He said "how much do you need?"
Then he hit me.

This is a person who will also growl and bark on the mat. A little distracting. A lot distracting if you are trying to put on a triangle choke and he is acting like a rabid dog trying to bite off your important parts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Troll-sama,

Great example of what is called a "pattern interrupt!" This is where the person you are facing does something totally unexpected, like asking "How much do you need" and then sucker punching you as you stand there trying to figure out what to do next!

A pattern interrupt can also be something that disrupts a normal, automatic or expected action, like grabbing someone's wrist with your left hand and waving your right hand in front of their face as you start to shake hands.

Try this sometime and watch what happens - the person will often "blank out" for a second or two. What this is is an intense searching inside their head for an appropriate response. Often, a strongly made suggestion at this point will be accepted automatically by the person so confused.

Pattern interrupts are great when and if you can bring them into play. Sometimes, by not reacting according to the "script" the other player will simply walk away or be stunned long enough for you to make your getaway of deal them serious hurt, whichever needs be.

As far as the barking and grunting, I have two comments: One: Why do you think the kiai is so much more than the breath and muscle control that we are taught it is? (A: because it can also be a pattern interrupt or a scary thing to face) Two: Have you made sure that he's had his rabies shots? Image

Great point, Troll! Keep em coming!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:52 am 
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Lee,

Thank you for the invite to this very interesting thread.

I agree with your representation of communication and how it can be more successfully if you understand their favored "representation system" as well as your own. This is an excellent way to refine teaching skills as well as in finding a teacher that will best serve you.

I also think pattern interrupt is a very useful tool.

In addition to those is the actual brain wave length being used. Beta, Alpha, Delta or Theta. Beta and Alpha are the wave lengths used to accomplish activities in the waken state. Beta is the state of mind you would have to be in if you wanted to:

"rip someone a new one."
"make them scream!"
"love watching them bleed!"
"make them Say Uncle!"

Beta is the only state of mind that is capable of doing harm to another life form. It is the caveman state of mind. Alpha is the state of mind that still allows you to set and accomplish goals, however it does not belong to the mode of the survival of the fittest.

In Tai Chi the greatest martial goal is a developed a hightened state of radar, peripheral vision. When you accomplish this those in the Beta state of mind are very easy to see for they are .... louder in everything they do.

One other glimpse of a thought i had was about the Chinese character for "Tao" it is comprised of the radicals, mind and foot moving together in harmony down a path. Could the representation system be the blend of them all while in the Alpha state? Very Interesting.

TAO
kinesthetic - you must feel the ground in order not to trip
auditory-tonal - have the lessons of the masters of past (song, poetry etc.)
visual person - must envision the path to begin with
auditory-digital - the mind - what are feet? what is a path? why did my master tell me to go this way etc.?


Pease in the Tao,

Elizabeth
(who is currently writing this post with 1 part kinetic, 2 parts visual and 1 part auditory-digital Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:20 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by E Wenscott:
Lee,

Thank you for the invite to this very interesting thread.

I agree with your representation of communication and how it can be more successfully if you understand their favored "representation system" as well as your own. This is an excellent way to refine teaching skills as well as in finding a teacher that will best serve you.

I also think pattern interrupt is a very useful tool.

In addition to those is the actual brain wave length being used. Beta, Alpha, Delta or Theta. Beta and Alpha are the wave lengths used to accomplish activities in the waken state. Beta is the state of mind you would have to be in if you wanted to:

"rip someone a new one."
"make them scream!"
"love watching them bleed!"
"make them Say Uncle!"

Beta is the only state of mind that is capable of doing harm to another life form. It is the caveman state of mind. Alpha is the state of mind that still allows you to set and accomplish goals, however it does not belong to the mode of the survival of the fittest.

In Tai Chi the greatest martial goal is a developed a hightened state of radar, peripheral vision. When you accomplish this those in the Beta state of mind are very easy to see for they are .... louder in everything they do.

One other glimpse of a thought i had was about the Chinese character for "Tao" it is comprised of the radicals, mind and foot moving together in harmony down a path. Could the representation system be the blend of them all while in the Alpha state? Very Interesting.

TAO
kinesthetic - you must feel the ground in order not to trip
auditory-tonal - have the lessons of the masters of past (song, poetry etc.)
visual person - must envision the path to begin with
auditory-digital - the mind - what are feet? what is a path? why did my master tell me to go this way etc.?


Pease in the Tao,

Elizabeth
(who is currently writing this post with 1 part kinetic, 2 parts visual and 1 part auditory-digital Image
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome Sifu Wenscott!

When I started your Tai Chi class last week, I was delighted at my kinesthetic response the next day - pain free, energized and an upbeat outlook. This week - same thing, only stronger. I can understand why Tai Chi is so addictive!

Your observations are interesting, to say the least. I am not aware of any research that supoports the statement that Beta brainwave state is the only state in which we can harm another deliberately. Do you have any sources on that as I am sincerely interested in looking over the research. It could open up whole new avenues for verbal self defense. Change their brainwave state and you preclude combat...VERY interesting concept! This might be an indicator as to why pattern interrupts work so well - the brainwave state changes, sometimes radically during an interrupt situation...Fascinating, as a certain pointy-eared science fiction character is wont to say...

Thanks for your support and the classes! My knees haven't felt this good in years!

With warmest regards and welcome,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:14 am 
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This question can be expanded to include the "mob" or a group of individuals.

Lee, since you're a performer I'm sure you've expereinced your share of hecklers. A heckler believes themselves to be an expert at the "pattern-interrupt" mechanism. They are doing so with the specific goal of getting the spotlight, taking control of the situation, and interrupting your rythm onstage.

The same can be said for how important it is to be aware of the group dynamic. If the leader is coming forward in an aggressive manner then your goal as the outnumbered one must be to understand the leader's motivation for choosing you as the victim. Then you become the heckler of the mob. With the goal being to interrupt the mob mentality long enough that you can make an escape.

I think this is also a powerful place for role playing to show us our pre-learned patterns. Van Canna has written at length on how the brain must have a pattern of some kind to base a behavior. If you have no pattern your brain will spin endlessly looking for something for you to do.

In verbal role play you can observe and identify the gaps in your patterns. Are you able to break into speech, are you able to speak out at odd times, are you able to top another vocally? These are all skills of verbal self-defense. They are very similar to the shucks & jives & fakes of a boxer.

Martial Artists seems content to endlessly role play a physical fight (sparring) but are absolutely gun-shy of role playing all the events that lead up to the physical altercation.

Why?

Dana

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited June 26, 2002).]


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:15 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Martial Artists seems content to endlessly role play a physical fight (sparring) but are absolutely gun-shy of role playing all the events that lead up to the physical altercation.

Why?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could become too personal.

When you are sparring, you can control your intensity and pull your techniques. Whenever I have tried to practice VSD and prefight conversing in the dojo, with adults or with children, I get mixed results.

The children giggle and try to think up things to say that really don't push the buttons correctly. They repeat silly sayings and look around to see if they are amusing the rest of the class. It is really hard to get them to role play and become an actor for the sake of the role playing. I can really appreciate child actors in Hollywood! The only time I can get children to role play corectly is when they are physically sparring and one of them takes liberties on the other. Then they really say what is on their minds.

The adults role play a little better. However, it is not a real situation, since they are mostly very friendly with each other and the harsh and intimidating and sometimes disgusting dialog is not used. I think this may be because the role players do want to accidently say something that may cause the other to think that the phrase may have some validity. After the role playing is over, the offended person may think, "I wonder if that person really feels that way about me. I wonder why he/she said those things. Could it really have been contrived or is there some hint at real feelings?"

Last Spring we had a seminar at Gary Khoury's. Tracy Rose was verbally trying to intimidate Christin, an instructor at the BUKA, to get her to attack him. She had just met Tracy that day for the first time so Tracy had no idea what would set her off. All he had to say to her was, "Hey baby, nice ass." After talking to her afterward, She said that it was a little upsetting to hear that come from another Uechi-ryu Sensei and that she did not feel that it was too personal. However it did strike a nerve when she heard the phrase in front of the group. Tracy was a very good actor, he clearly gave the impression that he sincererly meant what he said. Other than the fact that all women hate that phrase coming from a stranger, he really knew what would set her off. I asked her if she thought that Tracy had meant what he said. She said that he probably only said that to her to push her buttons, and that she was more concerned with the exercise than thinking that there may be some truth in his words. I then asked her what she would have felt if I had said that to her instead of Tracy. She blushed a little and said that she would have given more thought to the phrase in that situation. I have taught Christin since she was a child. Now that she is a mature 21 year old, I could never had said that to her even while role playing. She would have felt embarrassed instead of angered.
Dana, would you feel the same way if your Sensei said something similar to you while role playing?

A while ago we discussed the fact that to be succesful in role playing a strickly verbal exchange, the Sensei or any instructor should not take part because the "respect relationship" may be disrupted. The same thing, to a lesser degree, happens when dojo mates practice this together. The best way to practice these verbal confrontations is to hire a person whom nobody knows to be the confronter. Then nothing personal can be said because this person will not know any of the students. Therefore the students can not perceive any truth to any of the statements.




------------------
Len


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:38 pm 
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No - it cannot be the sensei who is the verbal agressor.

I think the reason the FAST defense seminars work and the model mugging seminars work is because they are "seminars". These are not people you are going to spend 1,3,20 or 30 years training with. These are folks you interact with for between 1 day to 6-8 weeks.

So they're not your friends. They're your trainers.

It seems that the verbal stuff is so emotional that we need the separation.

So then how does a dojo train for this? Do we identify an outside trainer - like a CSW or a conflict mediator or a psychologist who will come in a do the role playing and guide it?

It's going to depend on how invested the sensei is in this topic. Because it will take extra work to make this kind of program sucessful.

Dana


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:59 am 
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There's another issue with having the instructor pushing a student towards any edge.

If you'll pardon the digression:
--------------------------------------------------
There is a story that a student of Zen asked his sensei why there was so much emphasis on breathing. "It's common, everyone does it. Breathing's not that important."

The sensei grabbed him by the neck and held his head under water. The student struggled and thrashed for a minute or so and the sensei let him up and said "How important is breathing now?"

------------------------------------------------------

The story ends there, with the student learning a great lesson. But it is also a story of failure. BECAUSE the student knew, loved and trusted his teacher he learned a lesson. He DID NOT achieve the enlightenment that might have been possible if he had truly believed he was about to die.

It is important as instructors to develop a safe and trusting learning environment, but that very environment prevents us from bringing out the level and "flavor" of fear of a real encounter.

Rory


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:44 am 
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Interesting take on the issue of role playing an attack situation.

I watched some really silly martial arts flick this weekend. It started out with a guy entering a college class, late. The room was dark and he was suddenly confronted by someone he didn't know verbally abusing the daylights out of him - threatening him, calling him names, making racial slurs, the whole deal.. the student, clearly shaken and under full-tilt chemical cocktail, maintains his stance and keeps repeating, "I am a Black Belt in Karate. If you attack me, I will defend myself..." over and over.

At the end, the lights come up and it turns out that the "attacker" is the instructor for the course on combat psychology and an internationally ranked martial artist.

Bad movie, interesting training scenario.

While this is not something to be done with beginning level students - the possibility of drop out being too high, and liability (verbal abuse) also being rather high, the scenario shows, clearly, what a real assault of a verbal nature can be like.

Perhaps this could be adapted to the training scenario, using a visiting Sensei or other professional?

Might be interesting.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:00 pm 
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Lee,

I'm glad to hear that your knees are feeling better!

As for the brain states, the first article i remember reading was in UTNE magazine about 18 years ago. It was actually about the eyes and how they can change your brain state. The writer of the article (who's name i don't remember) sent a group of people out into the dessert in the dark of night and asked them to walk along a unlit path.

These city slickers bumped their way down a path, stubbed their toes and often fell even with the aid of a flashlight.

Then they were given a baseball cap, with a 12 inch rod with a glow in the dark dot at the end of the rod which was protruding out the bill of the hat ending nearly a foot in front of their nose.

With their flash lights turned off, they were again asked to walk along the path while looking at the dot in front of their nose instead of the path. By the end of the experiment the participants were practically jogging down the path and this was due to participants using their cone verses their rods. (Cones are responsible for peripheral vision. Rods for detailed vision.) What was also interesting in this article was that the people using their cones would also capture a ready like cat stance. The writer then compared the writings and images of Musashi whose was reported to use the same ready stance.

It was clear to the writer that Musashi was using peripheral vision. The writer said in this article that you can enter the peripheral state of mind by switching from rods to cones and you can also reach this state of mind by posture!!!

In tai chi chuan peripheral vision is a must as well as a relaxed body, both of which take you to the Alpha state. The same goes for most forms of meditation including Taoist, and there are many manuals that discuss how practicing peripheral vision with a relaxed mind is the way developing a heightened state of "radar."

As for the mental state of a person wishing to harm another.... Cheng Man Ching stated, "When practicing tai chi chuan, imagine that you are not alone. When practicing tai chi push hands, imagine that no one is there."
So, in actuality you CAN harm a person from the alpha state however you are treating the situation as if there is no distinction between human form and any other form of creation. All things are energy in the Alpha state. Because it takes people quite a lot of practice and self discovery and development most people tend to have a far greater respect for life and tend to not be interested in harming others.

I believe one of the Yang tai chi family members that accidentally killed his daughter when practicing tai chi spear because at a critical moment he no longer saw his daughter as his daughter. After he realized what he had done he was longer interested in two person practice for obvious reasons.

There is so much to say about this topic. Due to time restraints i will stop here until next time...let someone else have a go at it.

peace in the tao

e-


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:12 pm 
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Sifu Wenscott,

Thanks for the kind words. I put the improvement in my knees at your feet, metaphorically speaking. The Tai Chi is helping and I am looking forward to class Thursday night.

Interesting take on the rods and cones issue. I would be very interested to hear Dr. Glasheen's take on it. I am aware of a similar training method that used to be used by the Army's Rangers, but was not aware of it causing a selective neural change.

With regards to the spearmaster, it would seem to me that any state that removes one so far from reality that they no longer recognize a family member to the point of causing them harm is a state to be avoided.

While heightened awareness is generally a good thing, dissociating from the identity of a practice partner or opponent is dangerous as your post showed. A bit off the topic, but VERY interesting, nonetheless.

Thanks and keep posting! I'll see you in class Thursday!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 7:48 pm 
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To support what Lee has said, I have this to offer. I posted this information over on Van's forum, but I also know it fits well here. just for those who don't know, I'm also a certified Hypnotherapist (CHt) and am working towards my master certification in NLP.

An instructor once said (don't remember who, but very powerful statement); " If you can get them to talk, you can persuade them to walk". It has been my experience that if I can get a meaningful verbal interaction going between me and the threat, I will likely bring about a successful resolution to the situation. The "KEY" here is to get them to talk
It is my belief that the key skill in negotiation, during the pre-contact phase of a confrontation, is to dovetail outcomes. What do I mean by this ?, you need to fit the negotiation process together, so that everyone involved gets what they want. Obviously, the "presupposition" here is that the best way to achieve your outcome is to make sure that everyone involved achieves their's as well. In my opinion, if you can allow a person to "save face" it will allow for a win/win situation in the majority of cases.

Negotiation, however, is going to be different from person to person depending upon their specific "modality" of communication. If I'm attempting to de-escalate a situation verbally in the pre-contact phase, then I had better be communicating in a "modality" (language of the subconscious) that my threat(s) understand. Notice I said threat(s). In a multiple opponent situation, you may have to use a variety of modalities. I would, however, recommend that you target the language modality of the leader if possible, because he/she makes the call in a pack mentality. If you do not communicate in a modality understood by your threat, it will make the person technically "deaf" to your verbal attempts at de-escalation.


The Communication Language Of The Subconscious (modalities):

There are three primary communication modalities that we should be aware of; Visual, Auditory, kinesthetic (VAK):

1. Visuals:

Visuals understand what you say by what they see. Remember that these types of people turn words into pictures and images. Because of this fact, they understand communication best when it paints a picture for them. This type of communicator will say things like:

-"I wonder what you will look like once I'm through with you"
- "The look on your face shows me your scarred ****less"
- "When I'm done with you, you will look like ground beef"
- Usually have high pitched and/or strained tonality
- Will usually show quick bursts of words and generally have a fast tempo
- Predicates(words) for the visual include:

- Appear
- Disappear
- Foresee
- Imagine
- Overview
- Scope
- Vague
- Enlighten
- Wee
- Clear
- Show
- Watch
- Look

Phrases that visuals might use include:

- I see what you mean
- That's not clear to me
- Don't keep me in the dark
- Point out what you mean
- I am just seeing red
- Just give me the big picture
- Get a new perspective on this matter

These phrases could also be the template that you can work from when communicating with a Visual in the de-escalation stage.


2. Auditory

Auditories are sound based people. They get more information from how you say things than by what you show them. How you say what you say (paralinguistics) are more important than you content. Working like a tape recorder, Auditories play back recordings to get an idea of what you are saying.

- "I'm going to make you squeal like a stuck pig"¨
- " You cry and sound like a little baby"
- Will have clear resonant tonality
- Tempo will be even and rhythmic
- Predicates (words) used by the Auditory include:
- Whisper
- Babble
- Ringing
- Noisy
- Buzz
- Earshot
- Listen
- Sound
- Quiet

Auditory Phrases might include:

- I hear you loud and clear
- Don't give me any static on this
- It was music to my ears
- It was as clear as a bell
- It was all double talk
- Are we in tune with each other


Again, these phrases could be used as templates for you to use as well if dealing with an Auditory in the de-escalation phase

3. Kinesthetic


Kinesthetic make decisions by how they feel rather than by what they see or hear. Information comes predominately from touch, feeling, emotions, gut instincts more than from what you say. These types will get an instant feeling of like or dislike when around you. When they feel good about a situation, they will buy into it

- Kinesthetic talk about feelings in their communication. "I can't seen to handle this situation because it makes me feel so stressed" or " that person just rubs me the wrong way"

- this is going to make me feel so good¡¨
- Predicates (words) used include
- Feel
- Handle
- Firm
- Hard
- Soft
- Touch
- Catch poke
- Strike
- Hit
- Press
- Stumble through

- Kinesthetic phrases might include:
- I get the point
- I can't grasp it
- That strikes me right
- It hit me like a ton of bricks
- I need to back off
- He just rubs me the wrong way


Again, these phrases can be used as templates in the de-escalation phase


Once you understand communication modalities of the threat, now you can start modeling your communication style with their’s thus creating understanding and rapport. If someone is painting a picture using visual words, when speaking to that person, you should paint them a picture as well. If they are talking about how things sound or feel to them, speak in similar terms. Remember, if you treat a visual like a kinesthetic, the visual simply won’t respond. You have to be able to recognize this and shift into the modality that allows you to communicate more effectively. Once you have accomplished this, you can now begin to use specific communication techniques with appropriate modalities:


Some Communication Techniques I Use:


- Ask people to repeat what they said. " I'm sorry I didn't quite catch that, would you please repeat that again"¨ This allows one to think, formulate a plan and to clarify a problem
- Ask questions, who, what, where, when, how, and why. Again clarifies an issue and shows concern
- Interrupt by using their name if able. A person's first name is the most important name in the dictionary due to the fact that it allows you to personalize the contact
- Use "we" instead of "I", when using we it indicates that what you are saying is not an order. Instead of saying "I want you to go over there so that I can talk to you" maybe rephrase "why don't we go over here and discuss this"
- The use of a pattern Interruption technique. This can be very useful in derailing a person's thought process from something that was pissing them off. These happen all the time in our lives. In the middle of a conversation someone enters your officer and interrupts your thought process often causing amnesia. Not uncommon to hear a person say ¡§ now, where was I, I've lost my train of thought. Pattern interrupts are most effective if you use them just as the trouble or problem begins. At that point, a pattern interrupt can be used to stop the trouble before it starts. By breaking the flow in the behavior conversation, you may rescue it before it turns sour. A pattern interrupt could include, coughing, sneezing, dropping something, swatting a bug, exclaiming, loud noise ect.
- Matching predicates or Buzz words


One must remember that there is a time for talking and a time for fighting. If I'm fighting, I WILL not be talking. Wars have been started over words, and what was said by both sides. In the pre-contact phase, where communication is a valuable tool for de-escalation (where appropriate and reasonable to do so) , one needs to become just as skilled in art and science of communication, as they are their physical combatives.


Please realize I have only skimmed the surface on the science of NLP. I would encourage all who study combatives, to take a basic NLP course.


Strength and Honor

Darren Laur


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:31 pm 
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Darren:

Thanks for posting this to in the VSD Forum.

BTW, Tony Blauer, who was one of your teachers, uses the "Those who talk can be persuaded to walk" quotation but I don't know whether he originated it. Maybe he is from whom you got it.

Murray/student

[This message has been edited by student (edited July 15, 2002).]


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 12:14 am 
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Student:

Thank you. I thought it might have been Tony's quote, but I wasn't sure. I trained with Tony once back in 1992 during a two day seminar that he put on here in Victoria. Both he and I had much in common, and we synergized a lot during those two days about the who,what,where,when, how, and why of what we were both doing in the field of combatives.


Strength and Honor

Darren Laur


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